The idea of "FIRS Economies" is now more developed. They are work in progress, but the FIRS team has very good ideas for how they will be used: http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies
FIRS won't vary by climate (with the exception perhaps of Water). We have decided that the economies are a much better way to provide interesting gameplay with variety. Economies are set with a parameter. Each economy features a different range of cargos and industries.
This leaves players free to choose a climate based on what they think looks best, and how they want towns to behave in respect of Food and Water.
I've just lately been trying this grf out for the first time, and I very much like the look of it--both the art style and the direction it seems to be going. Regarding the supply industries discussed on the previous page, I'd like to see them stay (even if they're an initially-disabled option). They allow for some feedback into the primary production industries, and would make the game *very* interesting if OTTD ever gets Cargo Destinations working in the main trunk.
I note that most of the industries in the game thus far have no requisites on location, and I had some ideas about that.
A few industries so far--brewery, bakery, general store, waste collection point--have to be built in towns. I think this could be expanded to include more of the processing industries--like the textile mill, or the furniture factory. Those kinds of industries would need a source of labor for their production, so it would naturally follow that they would be in or near a town. It probably wouldn't be necessary to build them on top of actual town buildings, just that they be within a certain distance of a town of a minimum population (like some of the industries in Pika's Basic Industries). You might also see industries in a town scaling with town size--the bigger a town, the more Waste Collection Points and General Stores it's going to have in it.
Other processing industries would still need that source of labor, but they also wouldn't be anything the residents of a town would want nearby--i.e. dirty or "NIMBY" industries. These could need to be near towns, but also a certain distance away from them. If possible, they would also have a negative effect on town growth nearby; no matter how much a city expands, you're not liable to see a big, dirty, polluting industry surrounded by gleaming skyscrapers and high-rise apartments. You'd also have industries that crop up because of something produced in the town--junkyards, recycling plants, incinerators etc.
Other industries would be more affected by the landscape. Mines could be ideally located near areas where the terrain varies greatly over a short distance--like at the foot of or on top of a hill--because the geology of areas like that could bring valuable minerals nearer to the surface. Farms would need to be in lower-lying regions to avoid the harsh frost of winter, and near water to supply their livestock and crops with. Forests would be located in, well, forests--or at least heavily forested areas. These types would also need a source of labor, but a much smaller one, so you'd see farms and mines near small, rural towns instead of near big cities.
If possible, you might also have feedback between industries and towns. A high-production industry might boost the growth of a town, but a big dirty one would have a negative effect--heck, an operational power plant would be practically mandatory for any city after the turn of the 20th century, but you still wouldn't see it next to skyscrapers. Being surrounded by farmland would stifle a town's growth, but at the same time a town expanding across farmland would lead to farms being shut down and moving out into the countryside.
Finally, you could also have the placement of the supply industries related to the placement of the industries they support. You'd be more likely to find a farm supply depot in a small town surrounded by farms, or metal foundries and glass works in a big city with lots of factories.
Another idea I had was variable-appearance industries. A steel mill built in the 1920s and still in operation would look very different from one built decades later, but instead of having the old industries shut down, just change the appearance of the new ones. This combined with the older-style industries being phased out and new ones being introduced would give the game a very dynamic feel over time.
One final note: where'd the Bank go? I had this nifty idea that banks in all climates would exchange Valuables like they do in Temperate, but that providing them Gold or Diamonds or whatever would boost their production.
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Jim Starluck wrote:
A few industries so far--brewery, bakery, general store, waste collection point--have to be built in towns. I think this could be expanded to include more of the processing industries (...)
I'm actually against that for two reasons at least:
- it makes industry placement very difficult, thus they might not be built at all, especially on maps with very few towns and villages
- it makes also servicing those industries very difficult as it requires you to build within towns. Personally I prefer to be able to service industries, especially the big ones without bulldozing whole towns for even a moderate size station.
In general I prefer rather less restrictions - with possibly the option to add additional restrictions by setting additional difficulty or realism parameters. And at least for a first version, I think, the number of restrictions will be rather less than more.
If possible, you might also have feedback between industries and towns. A high-production industry might boost the growth of a town
That's out of scope of newgrfs.
Another idea I had was variable-appearance industries. A steel mill built in the 1920s and still in operation would look very different from one built decades later, but instead of having the old industries shut down, just change the appearance of the new ones. This combined with the older-style industries being phased out and new ones being introduced would give the game a very dynamic feel over time.
That's indeed a thing we're investigating. It might not be implemented too quickly, but something along those lines is what we discussed, too.
Jim Starluck wrote:
A few industries so far--brewery, bakery, general store, waste collection point--have to be built in towns. I think this could be expanded to include more of the processing industries (...)
I'm actually against that for two reasons at least:
- it makes industry placement very difficult, thus they might not be built at all, especially on maps with very few towns and villages
- it makes also servicing those industries very difficult as it requires you to build within towns. Personally I prefer to be able to service industries, especially the big ones without bulldozing whole towns for even a moderate size station.
In general I prefer rather less restrictions - with possibly the option to add additional restrictions by setting additional difficulty or realism parameters. And at least for a first version, I think, the number of restrictions will be rather less than more.
I'd like more restrictions. While you present the obstacles in servicing industries in towns as a drawback, to me that's the whole appeal. To combine a large city, with a large industry area, and the infrastructure associated with both passenger and freight transportation presents the most delightful challenges in the game.
Of course I could live with a FIRS without restrictions: I could choose to only service industries in built-up areas. But for me, and other players as well apparently, being forced to build in cities and towns is a good thing.
You can well restrict yourself by chosing to service those industries placed near a town anyway (it will happen, even by pure chance, increase that with more industries and / or more towns), if you like to do that. The reverse is not true, if the newgrf itself enforces it via strict placement rules.
For this very reason I don't quite understand why people always cry for "I want this restriction and that and so on", if they can do it all themselves without anyone intervening...
That said, such things *could* be made accessible via a difficulty parameter or alike, but I'll always argue to make an as limited amount of restrictions the default as possible. Simply for the KISS principle so that also beginners are not deterred straight away Those who like it difficult should also know how to set newgrf parameters. The reverse most often is also not true.
For this very reason I don't quite understand why people always cry for "I want this restriction and that and so on", if they can do it all themselves without anyone intervening...
It is very rare to see industries placed IN town or near it, like bakery, and high industry level result in overcrowding map with industries, and (what worse) and very easy acces to raw material industries.
planetmaker wrote:That said, such things *could* be made accessible via a difficulty parameter or alike, but I'll always argue to make an as limited amount of restrictions the default as possible. Simply for the KISS principle so that also beginners are not deterred straight away Those who like it difficult should also know how to set newgrf parameters.
It is absolutely true.
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andythenorth wrote:The idea of "FIRS Economies" is now more developed. They are work in progress, but the FIRS team has very good ideas for how they will be used: http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies[...]
That sounds cool. I'm looking forward to it. Are there more Economies in the pipeline? Maybe something like "Mining" (focuses on minerals / complement to farming economy), or "Hi-Tech" (long chains leading to high-level products)?
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Before discussing the industry placement ideas any further, I like to add this note first:
It's almost impossible to have the game place large industries in cities. And by large I mean any industry larger than two tiles. The bakery, in fact, is already a pain in the youknowwhat in terms of placement. The reason for that is that the industry entirely needs to be placed over existing town buildings. With large or compex shapes, buildings might not be in the correct location, roads might be in the way or the terrain might have hills in it which frustrates placement as well.
So that in fact limits the possibilities of having industries in towns very severely.
On a sidenote: having industries in the vicinity of a town is much easier and actually no problem at all.
Furthermore I personally don't want to enforce a whole lot. There will be some in-town and some around-town industries, some waterside industries and that is that. If you like very specific placement of industries, then go ahead and create a scenario. This in fact is one of the key features of FIRS: a lot of freedom. Compare stockpile limits in other industry sets and none of such limits in FIRS.
Roujin wrote:Maybe something like "Mining" (focuses on minerals / complement to farming economy), or "Hi-Tech" (long chains leading to high-level products)?
A mining industry is indeed possible. As for high-tech I don't thing we have a lot of industries that qualify that label, but who knows.
Note to self: overthink disable hatching new industries while playing; new industries prospecting/funding; no closing?
Roujin wrote:That sounds cool. I'm looking forward to it. Are there more Economies in the pipeline? Maybe something like "Mining" (focuses on minerals / complement to farming economy), or "Hi-Tech" (long chains leading to high-level products)?
Mining is planned. There will be various 'bonus' industries that are unique some of the economies. Adds a bit of variety, no?
My current list:
- "Basic" (about 21 industries, mostly new FIRS types and new cargos)
- "Ammler's Basic" (mostly existing TTD cargos, but new industries)
- "Farming"
- "Mining"
- "Oil" (heavy focus on oil chain, think North Sea, Texas, Alberta)
- "Seafaring" (focus on water based industries)
- "Tropical Island"
- "Metropolitan" (passenger, towns, goods, waste etc.)
- "Heavy Industry" (manufacturing)
- "Mountains"
- "Extreme" (nearly everything)
That list may change, in any case these will be released over time. First to be released are most likely "Basic" and "Extreme".
Regarding placement, I have a pretty clear idea, I'll reply in a bit (at work right now!)
cheers,
Andy
Last edited by andythenorth on 12 Jan 2010 21:01, edited 1 time in total.
This economy project is simply awesome: it adds a lot of variety to the game. I'm looking forward to start with new industries playing some games using "Basic". Then I'll play a HEQS game using "Mining", and after that... Who knows?
Having a pair of "stable economy" settings (one for enabling / disabling new industries, other for enabling /disabling industry closing) without weird side effects (such as industries that should be closed reaching unusable production levels) would be a nice feature indeed, specially when creating scenarios.
I have a few questions: the Extreme economy will have all the bonus industries of other economies?. Will you finish designing the Extreme economy first and then create the Basic economy as a light version or the other way around?.
Terkhen wrote:I have a few questions: the Extreme economy will have all the bonus industries of other economies?.
Probably not. It's likely we'll exceed the industry limit in that case. We'll see.
The basic industry is likely to be released quite early. Most of the industries for it are drawn. The primary industry production code is done, processing industry code is partly done.
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In respect of industry placement, basically I echo what FooBar said. There won't be too many restrictions. Some industries must locate on coast / water.
For all industries that should be near town, last week I changed the value of prop 1A (special flags) from 10 (locate in town) to 20 (locate near town). This makes the Bakery and Brewery easier to build. I've also set the Fishing Harbour and Junk Yard to use this value.
A few industries must locate near a source of electricity, a few more must locate near water. I might set a few to locate *away* from town. Values for any distance checks will be generous. Other than that there will be a large amount of freedom for players to build industries where they choose.
That said, I might consider more restrictions on location when the game is placing industries onto the map at game start. We'll see.
You can well restrict yourself by chosing to service those industries placed near a town anyway (it will happen, even by pure chance, increase that with more industries and / or more towns), if you like to do that. The reverse is not true, if the newgrf itself enforces it via strict placement rules.
For this very reason I don't quite understand why people always cry for "I want this restriction and that and so on", if they can do it all themselves without anyone intervening...
That said, such things *could* be made accessible via a difficulty parameter or alike, but I'll always argue to make an as limited amount of restrictions the default as possible. Simply for the KISS principle so that also beginners are not deterred straight away Those who like it difficult should also know how to set newgrf parameters. The reverse most often is also not true.
Fair enough I suppose. As said, I already impose some restrictions on myself if I want to (which is not always the case). So I guess I could certainly live without them.
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