Kruemelchen's Cookie Jar

[Argus]

"Water Trains" already has NUTS. So the "railway canals" were already here.

[kamnet]

The question of "why a roadtype and not a railtype" is mostly because we're exploring what we can and cannot do with roadtypes.

Based on the argument, I think the main issue is that it might not be possible to calculate buoyancy which is why it's so easy to transport large loads on water.

[Kruemelchen]

I wrote a ~2000 word reply that the forum software just ate, so here's a slightly-frustrated short version:

I love the concept of the Water Way Roads grf, it seems like a nice solution to the lack of support for small inland canals in the game, but I've encountered a few problems:

1. The option to enable Tow Ways and the Ship Cargo Capacity option are both coded as parameter 10 in the nml file. The result is that switching Cargo Capacity to anything other than "Overloaded" disables Tow Ways without warning, and turning Tow Ways on can set Cargo Capacity to the invalid value "5".
2. The only useful-sized Tow Way vehicle capable of transporting coal from year 1650 right up to 2000 is the Wooden Barge. With Cargo Capacity set to "5" (where it ended-up after I switched Tow Ways on when starting my second game) they carry a somewhat-useful 150 tonnes, but with the most powerful towing option (circa 1850) of two horses, the maximum speed on flat of a loaded barge is an unusable 2km/h. It takes around 150 barges to serve the single shortest coal-mine-to-coke-oven route in my current game, and they're losing money. I estimate I'd need 500,000 to 1,000,000 barges to transport all the raw materials on this map (and at least three times as many if I start providing engineering & farm supplies). Sadly, game-engine and hardware limitations prevent me from finding out.
   
   Setting the Cargo Capacity down to "Overloaded" reduces the barge to 90 tonnes, and (as a result I think) raises the speed on flat to an almost-respectable 15km/h, but it still climbs slopes at 2km/h. This inability to climb makes it effectively unusable on almost any route where I couldn't already plonk down a normal canal and use something from Sailing Ships (the other must-have grf for 18'th century watercraft). Even on flat ground the barge is too small and far too slow to compete with a 1st-generation steam cargo tram (40km/h, 72t load).
   
   Historically, inland canals were the primary way of shifting cargo until they were overtaken by the railways. I'd love to see this set with a useful bulk carrier of some sort to reproduce that effect up until powerful locomotives are available in the mid-to-late 19'th century. I think that a barge able to carry 200+ tonnes and move at 20km/h or more (on max settings) would be a good start.
   
   EDIT to add: The main issue seems to be that tractive effort is calculated as 10 x TE-coefficient x vehicle-weight, apparently not including the weight of the cargo. As a 1-ton vehicle, the Wooden Barge could never have more than 10KN of tractive effort, so couldn't climb slopes while carrying much cargo. Increasing the weight to 20 tons and adjusting the pulling power slightly fixes the problem nicely. I'm not going to upload a grf, because the posted source package is missing loads of sprite files (some are totally absent, others are symbolic links pointing outside the source tree to images that presumably exist on the author's system, but not on mine). I copied blank or similar-named images over for the missing sprites, and the results aren't pretty. As the only useful contribution I can make here is a one-line change to weight (I'm sure the author and I have different ideas about the appropriate power level), I don't see any point in posting a patch either.
3. The Ketches are confusing, and I suspect the current selection stems from a copy & paste error:
   
   As of 1849 there are four "Sailing Ketch" vehicles available in the Tow Way depot. Towable and non-towable models introduced in 1600 and 1800. Weirdly the 19'th century version is significantly worse than the 17'th century one: They have identical costs, but the newer one carries less cargo, is slower, and is less reliable. They also have slightly-different cargo restrictions, which make no sense in my game (probably because I'm using AXIS industries and the restrictions were chosen for some other industry set).
   
   Personally I'd make all watercraft either universally refitable or anything-but-passengers unless they're specialized (ferries, tankers, fishing boats etc.).
   
   Finally, and I know this is nit-picking and I apologize for that: A Ketch is a small two-masted sailing vessel with the mainmast in the front, which is what distinguishes it from a yawl (mainmast in back) or sloop (single mast) in the same general size. All ketches and yawls are sailing vessels by definition, so unless you plan to add a motorized version, there's no need to include "Sailing" in the name, especially for the towed version that doesn't rely on sails for power.

Hello cnww

Thank you for your productive feedback!! I'm glad you like using my set and overlooked all these oversights in your game
(I would have loved to read your 2000 words review )

I'll post an update to fix all your issues. Meanwhile, if there is more that you think would be improvable, please don't shy away from making feature requests

As a non-tech person, I have only a limited knowledge of technical matters or naming schemes. But I enjoy drawing and coding, as well as exploring new possibilities within the game. The Water Way GRF I have created to show what's possible, and to code small channels for the use inside of cities or villages. Later, when on a boat trip, I observed how many traces of boat towing are still in existence after a century or more of tight slumber, most towing ways now converted to bicycle roads or lost in the city scape. That made me want to explore the possibility of towable ships in OpenTTD

The most obvious use-case for towing is to tow ships uphill, since ships used to be towed up-stream. However, as you have observed, I haven't quite got it right yet (Even though towing becomes overpowered after ~1940). Also, it is very difficult to translate any form of realism into the game. Especially, since some players prefer realistic values (it kind of works with day length patch) whereas the standard economies need a quadruple of the capacity transported in half the time to be profitable. I kind of tried to cater to both cohorts via parameters.

I would like to hear more feedback from you, if you have, so feel free to answer this post or PM me about that
Also, if you'd want to contribute anything, I'd be more than happy hearing from you

Because of work, I hardly have any time to play OpenTTD these days, lest working on my GRFs. But I will find the time someday, the more if I have yet another crazy idea in my mind

That said, I'm always positive about feedback and contributions, and try to sort things out

p.p.s. Why a road type and not a rail type? That would allow diagonal movement, and there are numerous historical and modern examples of "trains" of several barges towed by a single leading tug. For realism you could prevent most watercraft from being connected to anything, and use callbacks to restrict tug/barge combos to a single water or tow-path engine plus a fairly low maximum number of barges (maybe 5 or 6 barges or a single other towable watercraft). Implementing towing vehicles like locomotives would also avoid the current non-obvious selection method of using refit options, and thus make autoreplace work properly.... Just a thought.

I'd certainly make some or a lot of things easier
Maybe I'll learn how to code trains some day. Meanwhile, it'll be strangely coded road vehicles, unless somebody takes over and just "does it"

[JohnFranklin523]

Welcome back, Kruemelchen!

[Kruemelchen]

New Update of Water Way Roads → 0.4.4

What's new?

• parameter IDs were fixed → due to this, no automatic update of GRF possible
• vehicles are now properly ordered
• capacity, speed, power of all vehicles adjusted to fix issues esp. with towed ships → to update you need to sell and rebuy all vehicles, hence a new game is recommended

Freight capacity has been significantly increased. At the same time, ships should now have a decent acceleration and maximum speed. Power of ships increased as well, it now scales with capacity and speed parameters. This means, towed ships can now travel uphill at min. ~5 kph. This was accomplished by changing the cargo distribution on towed vehicles, as only the weight of the first part of an articulated vehicle is used to calculate tractive effort. Negative side effect is, that barges need to be 3/4 filled to show filling graphics.

The source was also updated and now includes all needed graphics; this was an oversight in the 0.4.3 release

Please let me know if you have any issues with this release.

[Argus]

Why isn't it on Bananas yet?

[Kruemelchen]

Why isn't it on Bananas yet?

Now it's on bananas

[Argus]

Why is an MPS mail car marked as Waterway among normal road cars?
And why can only motor ketches carry passengers? I don't like that, people want to sail without an engine.

[Kruemelchen]

Why is an MPS mail car marked as Waterway among normal road cars?
And why can only motor ketches carry passengers? I don't like that, people want to sail without an engine.

I have no clue, why one of the standard vehicles would be marked as "waterway"... Maybe you have an old vehicle which ID got removed? Try to sell it and buy a new one. Or does it effect a vehicle in your buy list?

For the ketches, I accidentally removed passenger support... I have put it back in and pushed an update to Bananas. Please update to use the sailing vessels for passenger transport again

[Argus]

I also tried it in a new game, no idea what it could be.

[De Funes]

This is a graphic set from Kruemelchen:
viewtopic.php?p=1262660&hilit=Horse+Carts#p1262660

Hi, I am observing an issue with Horse Carts capacity declared when purchasing a vehicle and actual in details after purchasing a vehicle. For illustration - in the attached picture for the Horse Cart "Four-in-hand mail coach" declared capacity for 30 passengers vs. actual capacity 10 passengers, in case of Horse Cart "Two-in-hand mail coach" declared capacity for 20 passengers vs. actual capacity 10 passengers. I don't think any of the initial Horse Carts work well in this regard. EDIT: I don't think 30 passengers could fit in a horse cart at all

Am I doing something wrong? I searched here on the forum and couldn't find anyone dealing with this before...

For testing purposes, this is the only GRF set in the game, set parameters are default. OpenTTD 14.0 (RC1 / RC2).

Thank you for your response.

De Funes

[kamnet]

Towed boats!
With these, you can transport massive amounts of cargo over canals. As refit option, you have various means of tow support available, ranging from humans (available since year 0) up to electric rail (from the 1940s). With the support of these*, boats can travel with enhanced power and speed on Tow Ways!
* selectable for every vehicle separately

I have WaterWayRoad 0.4.5, and in 1840 in Arctic I do not have any of the towed boats in the Towway depot. Could this be a bug?

[De Funes]

I have other bugs in Horse Carts Road Vehicle Set 1.1 - some Horse Carts allow you to refit road vehicle to transport a commodity that may not be intended for it - or the horse cart graphics is missing. After the refit road vehicle, the carriage graphics will disappear and only the team of horses will go on the route. This happens, for example, during the refit of the following vehicles: Six / Four / Two-in-hand mail coach, Four / Two-in-hand stage coach. There are various refit road vehicle options for Horse Carts (goods, livestock, steel, valuables...), but in most cases, graphics for this carts are not available. Graphics are for passengers and mail only…

De Funes

[Kruemelchen]

I have other bugs in Horse Carts Road Vehicle Set 1.1 - some Horse Carts allow you to refit road vehicle to transport a commodity that may not be intended for it - or the horse cart graphics is missing. After the refit road vehicle, the carriage graphics will disappear and only the team of horses will go on the route. This happens, for example, during the refit of the following vehicles: Six / Four / Two-in-hand mail coach, Four / Two-in-hand stage coach. There are various refit road vehicle options for Horse Carts (goods, livestock, steel, valuables...), but in most cases, graphics for this carts are not available. Graphics are for passengers and mail only…

Thank you so much for reporting this issue, and I am so sorry I didn't read your messages earlier

This is an overside on my side, the coaches were never supposed to transport anything else than passengers, mail and valuables The two-in-hand coaches have the correct cargo classes, only the other versions allowed express and piece goods

Hi, I am observing an issue with Horse Carts capacity declared when purchasing a vehicle and actual in details after purchasing a vehicle. For illustration - in the attached picture for the Horse Cart "Four-in-hand mail coach" declared capacity for 30 passengers vs. actual capacity 10 passengers, in case of Horse Cart "Two-in-hand mail coach" declared capacity for 20 passengers vs. actual capacity 10 passengers. I don't think any of the initial Horse Carts work well in this regard. EDIT: I don't think 30 passengers could fit in a horse cart at all

You are right, those numbers aren't correct...
Somehow, OpenTTD falsely interprets the 0 capacity of the horses, and calculates them as if they would carry as much as the actual cart. That is why the four-in-hand stage coach shows a capacity of 18 passengers in the buy menu, but actually only transports 6 passengers (as can be seen in the vehicle details, when you bought the vehicle). OpenTTD takes these 6 passengers and adds them to the horses (ignoring their 0 capacity), so you arrive at 18 passengers in the buy menu. The actually bought vehicle hasn't got this capacity, though...
I would be very happy to know how to mitigate this issue
Ultimately, I think it is a bug in the capacity calculation.

I have WaterWayRoad 0.4.5, and in 1840 in Arctic I do not have any of the towed boats in the Towway depot. Could this be a bug?

Could you resolve this? Towable boats should be available regardless of climate. Are you sure, however, you have the parameter "enable tow ways" set to true?

[OzTrans]

Hi, I am observing an issue with Horse Carts capacity declared when purchasing a vehicle and actual in details after purchasing a vehicle. For illustration - in the attached picture for the Horse Cart "Four-in-hand mail coach" declared capacity for 30 passengers vs. actual capacity 10 passengers, in case of Horse Cart "Two-in-hand mail coach" declared capacity for 20 passengers vs. actual capacity 10 passengers. I don't think any of the initial Horse Carts work well in this regard. EDIT: I don't think 30 passengers could fit in a horse cart at all :)

You are right, those numbers aren't correct... :oops:
Somehow, OpenTTD falsely interprets the 0 capacity of the horses, and calculates them as if they would carry as much as the actual cart. That is why the four-in-hand stage coach shows a capacity of 18 passengers in the buy menu, but actually only transports 6 passengers (as can be seen in the vehicle details, when you bought the vehicle). OpenTTD takes these 6 passengers and adds them to the horses (ignoring their 0 capacity), so you arrive at 18 passengers in the buy menu. The actually bought vehicle hasn't got this capacity, though...
I would be very happy to know how to mitigate this issue :?:
Ultimately, I think it is a bug in the capacity calculation.

It is not a bug ... with articulated RVs, you need to deal with the capacity in the purchase menu.

I assume, all parts of your 'RV' have the same vehicle ID, therefore the capacity in the buy menu for a 3-part RV are calculated as 3 x 6 = 18.

To fix that, you need to use CB 36 (Change Vehicle Properties) in the purchase chain, and set property 0F (Cargo capacity) to 6 for the carriage and 0 for the horses. The cargo capacity property will then be over written.

[happysmash27]

Horse Carts Road Vehicle Set
Version 1.0

"Horse Carts" is a reality-inspired road vehicle set, that provides carts, wagons or carriages pulled by horses (among others).

Features:

• 8 different carts/wagons/carriages
• multiple variants in pulling means (speed, power), including horses and oxen (more to come)
• generic carts get tyre upgrade around 1900 (need to buy new)
• horse courier and logging horse
• available since medieval times to cater very early game starts
• vehicles are available in their realistic time period (per standard, vehicles never expire)
• slightly-realistic horse speeds (hopefully balanced)
• parameters to adjust to play style
• native 2X-Zoom graphics
• animated horses (and cattle )
• cargo graphics
• carts can go off-road and cross rivers (needs WaterWayRoad*)

*the fording feature in WaterWayRoad 0.3.3 is only available when used together with SUV (see first post)

Vehicles:
vehiclelist.png


Disclaimer: Due to "realism" capacity and speed of the horse carts might not be suitable for a fast-paced game after 1920. Best use with daylength-patch, pre-1900 and with reduced cargo production.

Upcoming Features:

• camels in subtropical climate!

License:
GPLv2 unless specified other

Download the GRF and source below! (Will upload to Bananas, unless bugs are reported)

I can't seem to find the passenger or mail coaches no matter which year I set (1750, 1774 (current game), 1835, 1880). Are they available in the subtropical climate?

As of 1774 (starting from 1750), it's also getting pretty clear that with the default day length… Trying to saturate any given link can quickly create traffic jams of horses and still not be transporting enough, and even partially connecting only a fraction of the map I am already at over 1000 vehicles so will probably need to raise the vehicle limit even above the 5000 I raised it to before installing the JGR patch in anticipation of reaching it. At this rate I suspect I may eventually reach even JGR's limits… Do you have any recommendations for how much to increase the day length (and, perhaps, how much to reduce the cargo output, though I am less sure about that since city growth is tied to how much cargo can be delivered to them)? These armies of horses coming out of this tiny farm is just nuts!

[Kruemelchen]

It is not a bug ... with articulated RVs, you need to deal with the capacity in the purchase menu.

I assume, all parts of your 'RV' have the same vehicle ID, therefore the capacity in the buy menu for a 3-part RV are calculated as 3 x 6 = 18.

To fix that, you need to use CB 36 (Change Vehicle Properties) in the purchase chain, and set property 0F (Cargo capacity) to 6 for the carriage and 0 for the horses. The cargo capacity property will then be over written.

Thank you for the input! I'll try and mend this then in future releases
I think, I'll try to change the vehicle ID for the horses, so that the capacity is calculated correctly.
When I started working on this, I didn't know that was possible, as other sets I had a look at used the single-ID method.

As of 1774 (starting from 1750), it's also getting pretty clear that with the default day length… Trying to saturate any given link can quickly create traffic jams of horses and still not be transporting enough, and even partially connecting only a fraction of the map I am already at over 1000 vehicles so will probably need to raise the vehicle limit even above the 5000 I raised it to before installing the JGR patch in anticipation of reaching it. At this rate I suspect I may eventually reach even JGR's limits… Do you have any recommendations for how much to increase the day length (and, perhaps, how much to reduce the cargo output, though I am less sure about that since city growth is tied to how much cargo can be delivered to them)? These armies of horses coming out of this tiny farm is just nuts!

I am sorry for the late answer.
What you describe, is a general issue with early start games. Like you say, the industry output is far too high for vehicles other than trains to cope with. Even ships can struggle if the travel time gets too long and the payment crumbles away.
In the settings of my carriages set, you can already opt for increasing capacity and speed, which is highly recommended for a vanilla play style.
Other than that, I'd advice reducing the industry output rate (so less is produced), increase the daylength (so you have more time to deliver things on time) and if you wish to then increase city growth.
In my personal games I prefer a daylength of 10 for 100% industry production rate. Basically it's playing around until it fits.

[speeder]

How I use fairways?

I wanted to build a venice-style city, I found out you CAN build a city next to the waterways just fine. But I can't figure out how to make the canals work with the actual ocean. If that is possible, at all.

[OzTrans]

I wanted to build a venice-style city, I found out you CAN build a city next to the waterways just fine. But I can't figure out how to make the canals work with the actual ocean. If that is possible, at all.

You need to build a lock between the canal/river and the ocean.

Lock.png (26.93 KiB) Viewed 4492 times

[Quast65]

You need to build a lock between the canal/river and the ocean.

That wont work
The canals/fairways in Kreumelchens GRF are actually roadtypes, they just look like a waterfeature

I can't figure out how to make the canals work with the actual ocean. If that is possible, at all.

That is not possible.
As I said above, these are roadtypes and they have their own special "roadvehicles" (they just look like boats).
So, those boats wont go on the ocean/lakes and actual boats wont travel along the fairways.

The only way to mix them is if you surround the road/fairway with object watertiles, if you place the fairway within an actual sea or lake.
That will prevent the road/fairway from flooding from actual water.
Dont forget to also place objecttiles along the coast, next to where the fairway goes down/up into a sea or lake!