Yes, you are not using r24839, beta 1 or newer3iff wrote:I'm guessing something is slightly wrong?
MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
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Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
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Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
I had a quick look through the readme and I didn't spot a minimum version to use...
I'll get a newer version. Thanks.
***
That does the trick! Ok, I can now give this a test.
I'll get a newer version. Thanks.
***
That does the trick! Ok, I can now give this a test.
Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
After upgrading to the latest version of NUTS (0.4.4), I've noticed some of what are either balance issues, bugs, or faulty tooltips, or maybe intended yet illogical things (even from the set's viewpoint).
Either way, in the current version things are rather off-balance, with for example maglev cargo engines being best for express passenger transport, and chameleons locally.
- The monorail express engines ('flow' and relatives) haul 40, 24, 24, 24 passengers capacity instead of the indicated 48 for generations 1, 2, 3, 4 respectively.
- Chami express wagons have less capacity than indicated, and have the indicated amount only beyond a certain length.
- Maglev cargo engines-pulled express wagons have 78 passengers capacity instead of the indicated 39. (obsoletes all express passenger engines beyond 2000)
- Maglev cargo wagons have 22 units of cargo per car capacity instead of the indicated 24.
- All Maglev wagons weigh 60 tonnes, yet maglev express wagons weigh 20 tonnes. (note: there is no diffrence for rail and monorail in wagon weights)
- THE SLUG indicates vaguely 'wagon capacity: 50' yet cargo wagons have 24 units capacity, passengers 50, and mail 28
- When refitting cargo wagons from passengers to mail/gold/diamonds, the amount of mail it can carry per passenger varies from one wagon/engine combination to the next.**
- There are some engines that lose statistics from having a longer train, yet there is one engine that GAINS statistics. It performs rather too well for trains of five tiles and longer.
- The engines that indicate they gain or lose some amount of power do not indicate that they are talking in units of 'hp'. When you have set the SI system, for example, the unit for power is KW, which is different from hp, hence the indicated values are then incorrect.
- The 'dogstar' class of vehicles lose tractive effort per added train unit, all four have different top speeds and powers, yet the same lower bound for their tractive effort that does not increase with later generation engines, making the penalty far more crippling for the later versions than the earlier versions (dogstar* has literally no penalty, while I Choose Noise loses 40% of TE at length 10).
- The 'maelstrom' class of engines loses 2 units of cargo capacity when you add the 15th wagon.***
- This class also loses another 19 units of passenger capacity when adding the 17th wagon.***
- Chameleon engines, which are supposed to be an 'extra' class of engines, beat the monorail local trains hands down in everything but loading speed for trains >= 5 tiles when transporting passengers (even with the reduced capacity). Yet the monorail local trains are best used for small lengths, which means they are rather pointless now.
*'Dogstar' itself indicates its tractive effort decreases, yet it (the tractive effort) does NOT decrease with added wagons.
** e.g. 100 passengers might equate to 50 bags of mail, and 50 passengers might equate to 28 bags of mail. This ratio can even differ (wildly) between wagons/engine on the same train, making it important to refit certain parts of the train first before others. This amount of micromanagement might turn off users. Worse, when upgrading to a different train class, auto-refitting might give you a sub-optimal consist, requiring a dreadful manual upgrade! An especially egregious offender is the chameleon engine, which refits one passenger = one mail = one gold/valuable/diamond instead of the more often seen 8:4:3 ratio throughout the set. Note: the ratio in the default trainset is 4:3:3.
*** This means that if I'm using a network of local trains of length 8 for whatever reason, and upgrade to monorail, I would have to remove one wagon from each and every one of my trains induvidually to gain cargo capacity. I thought this set had easy auto-upgrading?
Either way, in the current version things are rather off-balance, with for example maglev cargo engines being best for express passenger transport, and chameleons locally.
- The monorail express engines ('flow' and relatives) haul 40, 24, 24, 24 passengers capacity instead of the indicated 48 for generations 1, 2, 3, 4 respectively.
- Chami express wagons have less capacity than indicated, and have the indicated amount only beyond a certain length.
- Maglev cargo engines-pulled express wagons have 78 passengers capacity instead of the indicated 39. (obsoletes all express passenger engines beyond 2000)
- Maglev cargo wagons have 22 units of cargo per car capacity instead of the indicated 24.
- All Maglev wagons weigh 60 tonnes, yet maglev express wagons weigh 20 tonnes. (note: there is no diffrence for rail and monorail in wagon weights)
- THE SLUG indicates vaguely 'wagon capacity: 50' yet cargo wagons have 24 units capacity, passengers 50, and mail 28
- When refitting cargo wagons from passengers to mail/gold/diamonds, the amount of mail it can carry per passenger varies from one wagon/engine combination to the next.**
- There are some engines that lose statistics from having a longer train, yet there is one engine that GAINS statistics. It performs rather too well for trains of five tiles and longer.
- The engines that indicate they gain or lose some amount of power do not indicate that they are talking in units of 'hp'. When you have set the SI system, for example, the unit for power is KW, which is different from hp, hence the indicated values are then incorrect.
- The 'dogstar' class of vehicles lose tractive effort per added train unit, all four have different top speeds and powers, yet the same lower bound for their tractive effort that does not increase with later generation engines, making the penalty far more crippling for the later versions than the earlier versions (dogstar* has literally no penalty, while I Choose Noise loses 40% of TE at length 10).
- The 'maelstrom' class of engines loses 2 units of cargo capacity when you add the 15th wagon.***
- This class also loses another 19 units of passenger capacity when adding the 17th wagon.***
- Chameleon engines, which are supposed to be an 'extra' class of engines, beat the monorail local trains hands down in everything but loading speed for trains >= 5 tiles when transporting passengers (even with the reduced capacity). Yet the monorail local trains are best used for small lengths, which means they are rather pointless now.
*'Dogstar' itself indicates its tractive effort decreases, yet it (the tractive effort) does NOT decrease with added wagons.
** e.g. 100 passengers might equate to 50 bags of mail, and 50 passengers might equate to 28 bags of mail. This ratio can even differ (wildly) between wagons/engine on the same train, making it important to refit certain parts of the train first before others. This amount of micromanagement might turn off users. Worse, when upgrading to a different train class, auto-refitting might give you a sub-optimal consist, requiring a dreadful manual upgrade! An especially egregious offender is the chameleon engine, which refits one passenger = one mail = one gold/valuable/diamond instead of the more often seen 8:4:3 ratio throughout the set. Note: the ratio in the default trainset is 4:3:3.
*** This means that if I'm using a network of local trains of length 8 for whatever reason, and upgrade to monorail, I would have to remove one wagon from each and every one of my trains induvidually to gain cargo capacity. I thought this set had easy auto-upgrading?
-
V453000 :)
- President
- Posts: 946
- Joined: 01 Feb 2011 11:22
- Location: Beer
Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
Wow! Thanks for the report; As you have noticed, there is a lot of new things in the set, which obviously leads to a lof of these issues. 
I have addressed many of them already and the rest you write here I will fix in 0.4.5. Just some comments:
- The monorail express engines ('flow' and relatives) haul 40, 24, 24, 24 passengers capacity instead of the indicated 48 for generations 1, 2, 3, 4 respectively.
Interesting issue, I did not notice this at all, will be fixed to work as indicated in purchase menu.
- Chami express wagons have less capacity than indicated, and have the indicated amount only beyond a certain length.
They have it noted in Chami Express extra info, that they change capacity, the 112 is the upper limit, I will just fill the info with that
- Maglev cargo engines-pulled express wagons have 78 passengers capacity instead of the indicated 39. (obsoletes all express passenger engines beyond 2000)
That is because these wagons now consist of 2 parts instead of one, but I forgot to change that value.
- Maglev cargo wagons have 22 units of cargo per car capacity instead of the indicated 24.
Wrong purchase menu value, should be 22, 24 is only for SLUGs
- All Maglev wagons weigh 60 tonnes, yet maglev express wagons weigh 20 tonnes. (note: there is no diffrence for rail and monorail in wagon weights)
Interesting find, will unify to 60.
- THE SLUG indicates vaguely 'wagon capacity: 50' yet cargo wagons have 24 units capacity, passengers 50, and mail 28
That is correct, it should just be saying Express wagon capacity. That mistake appeared because formerly SLUGs were express only so it was obvious. Mail is about correct.
- When refitting cargo wagons from passengers to mail/gold/diamonds, the amount of mail it can carry per passenger varies from one wagon/engine combination to the next.**
It is pretty much impossible to unify this ratio exactly as each value fits something else, but I will see what I could do about this in general. So far I filled these ratios rather randomly to be honest.
- There are some engines that lose statistics from having a longer train, yet there is one engine that GAINS statistics. It performs rather too well for trains of five tiles and longer.
This is more or less correct, while they definitely should not perform that well. They should perform well after reaching at least 6-7 tiles, up to 10 tiles with great performance - building 10 tile curves is a pain in the ass.
- The engines that indicate they gain or lose some amount of power do not indicate that they are talking in units of 'hp'. When you have set the SI system, for example, the unit for power is KW, which is different from hp, hence the indicated values are then incorrect.
They are code values without units. For example Power: 5000; I will see what to do with this as the power is only mentioned in the flexible train stats, it isnt that much work to fix.
- The 'dogstar' class of vehicles lose tractive effort per added train unit, all four have different top speeds and powers, yet the same lower bound for their tractive effort that does not increase with later generation engines, making the penalty far more crippling for the later versions than the earlier versions (dogstar* has literally no penalty, while I Choose Noise loses 40% of TE at length 10).
Very, very odd. I have no idea how that came out. I will look at that more closely.
- The 'maelstrom' class of engines loses 2 units of cargo capacity when you add the 15th wagon.***
It is MonoLocal, not maelstrom (MonoICE), it occurs because the wagons reduce capacity and that is some weird treshold, will see what can be done - monoLocal will change stats anyway.
- This class also loses another 19 units of passenger capacity when adding the 17th wagon.***
Same as above
- Chameleon engines, which are supposed to be an 'extra' class of engines, beat the monorail local trains hands down in everything but loading speed for trains >= 5 tiles when transporting passengers (even with the reduced capacity). Yet the monorail local trains are best used for small lengths, which means they are rather pointless now.
I know, capacities will be rescaled again and local loading speed will be capped at 5 stages.
*'Dogstar' itself indicates its tractive effort decreases, yet it (the tractive effort) does NOT decrease with added wagons.
Weird, will check.
** e.g. 100 passengers might equate to 50 bags of mail, and 50 passengers might equate to 28 bags of mail. This ratio can even differ (wildly) between wagons/engine on the same train, making it important to refit certain parts of the train first before others. This amount of micromanagement might turn off users. Worse, when upgrading to a different train class, auto-refitting might give you a sub-optimal consist, requiring a dreadful manual upgrade! An especially egregious offender is the chameleon engine, which refits one passenger = one mail = one gold/valuable/diamond instead of the more often seen 8:4:3 ratio throughout the set. Note: the ratio in the default trainset is 4:3:3.
Yes, completely wildly I will see what I can do with that but it probably wont change too quickly as there is quite a lot of those things. Will see how it goes.
*** This means that if I'm using a network of local trains of length 8 for whatever reason, and upgrade to monorail, I would have to remove one wagon from each and every one of my trains induvidually to gain cargo capacity. I thought this set had easy auto-upgrading?
Well, yes this is a bit strange, yet it has some logic. The original logic is that the strongest points of the train stats meet at odd values, like 1.5 or 7.5 in this case. Therefore it is considerable to build these lengths for local trains for monorail. I am not sure how will this move, as I will probably be changing their stats in general.
All in all, will be changed or improved in some way. The current versions just brought so many new features that it obviously has to bring also some side effects Thank you for playing carefully and discovering so many issues.
I have addressed many of them already and the rest you write here I will fix in 0.4.5. Just some comments:- The monorail express engines ('flow' and relatives) haul 40, 24, 24, 24 passengers capacity instead of the indicated 48 for generations 1, 2, 3, 4 respectively.
Interesting issue, I did not notice this at all, will be fixed to work as indicated in purchase menu.
- Chami express wagons have less capacity than indicated, and have the indicated amount only beyond a certain length.
They have it noted in Chami Express extra info, that they change capacity, the 112 is the upper limit, I will just fill the info with that
- Maglev cargo engines-pulled express wagons have 78 passengers capacity instead of the indicated 39. (obsoletes all express passenger engines beyond 2000)
That is because these wagons now consist of 2 parts instead of one, but I forgot to change that value.
- Maglev cargo wagons have 22 units of cargo per car capacity instead of the indicated 24.
Wrong purchase menu value, should be 22, 24 is only for SLUGs
- All Maglev wagons weigh 60 tonnes, yet maglev express wagons weigh 20 tonnes. (note: there is no diffrence for rail and monorail in wagon weights)
Interesting find, will unify to 60.
- THE SLUG indicates vaguely 'wagon capacity: 50' yet cargo wagons have 24 units capacity, passengers 50, and mail 28
That is correct, it should just be saying Express wagon capacity. That mistake appeared because formerly SLUGs were express only so it was obvious. Mail is about correct.
- When refitting cargo wagons from passengers to mail/gold/diamonds, the amount of mail it can carry per passenger varies from one wagon/engine combination to the next.**
It is pretty much impossible to unify this ratio exactly as each value fits something else, but I will see what I could do about this in general. So far I filled these ratios rather randomly to be honest.
- There are some engines that lose statistics from having a longer train, yet there is one engine that GAINS statistics. It performs rather too well for trains of five tiles and longer.
This is more or less correct, while they definitely should not perform that well. They should perform well after reaching at least 6-7 tiles, up to 10 tiles with great performance - building 10 tile curves is a pain in the ass.
- The engines that indicate they gain or lose some amount of power do not indicate that they are talking in units of 'hp'. When you have set the SI system, for example, the unit for power is KW, which is different from hp, hence the indicated values are then incorrect.
They are code values without units. For example Power: 5000; I will see what to do with this as the power is only mentioned in the flexible train stats, it isnt that much work to fix.
- The 'dogstar' class of vehicles lose tractive effort per added train unit, all four have different top speeds and powers, yet the same lower bound for their tractive effort that does not increase with later generation engines, making the penalty far more crippling for the later versions than the earlier versions (dogstar* has literally no penalty, while I Choose Noise loses 40% of TE at length 10).
Very, very odd. I have no idea how that came out. I will look at that more closely.
- The 'maelstrom' class of engines loses 2 units of cargo capacity when you add the 15th wagon.***
It is MonoLocal, not maelstrom (MonoICE), it occurs because the wagons reduce capacity and that is some weird treshold, will see what can be done - monoLocal will change stats anyway.
- This class also loses another 19 units of passenger capacity when adding the 17th wagon.***
Same as above
- Chameleon engines, which are supposed to be an 'extra' class of engines, beat the monorail local trains hands down in everything but loading speed for trains >= 5 tiles when transporting passengers (even with the reduced capacity). Yet the monorail local trains are best used for small lengths, which means they are rather pointless now.
I know, capacities will be rescaled again and local loading speed will be capped at 5 stages.
*'Dogstar' itself indicates its tractive effort decreases, yet it (the tractive effort) does NOT decrease with added wagons.
Weird, will check.
** e.g. 100 passengers might equate to 50 bags of mail, and 50 passengers might equate to 28 bags of mail. This ratio can even differ (wildly) between wagons/engine on the same train, making it important to refit certain parts of the train first before others. This amount of micromanagement might turn off users. Worse, when upgrading to a different train class, auto-refitting might give you a sub-optimal consist, requiring a dreadful manual upgrade! An especially egregious offender is the chameleon engine, which refits one passenger = one mail = one gold/valuable/diamond instead of the more often seen 8:4:3 ratio throughout the set. Note: the ratio in the default trainset is 4:3:3.
Yes, completely wildly
I will see what I can do with that but it probably wont change too quickly as there is quite a lot of those things. Will see how it goes.*** This means that if I'm using a network of local trains of length 8 for whatever reason, and upgrade to monorail, I would have to remove one wagon from each and every one of my trains induvidually to gain cargo capacity. I thought this set had easy auto-upgrading?
Well, yes this is a bit strange, yet it has some logic. The original logic is that the strongest points of the train stats meet at odd values, like 1.5 or 7.5 in this case. Therefore it is considerable to build these lengths for local trains for monorail. I am not sure how will this move, as I will probably be changing their stats in general.
All in all, will be changed or improved in some way. The current versions just brought so many new features that it obviously has to bring also some side effects
Thank you for playing carefully and discovering so many issues.
-
V453000 :)
- President
- Posts: 946
- Joined: 01 Feb 2011 11:22
- Location: Beer
Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
I have fixed most of these issues, leaving a few out for now, namely:
-I did not reduce power of fast monorails as they dont do all that well, and I improved maglev fast a little bit instead.
-The numbers in purchase menu stay as code values, at least for now. There is always going to be some setting wrong, metric, imperial or SI. Especially massive WTF is around power where both metric and imperial have "hp" as units but they are different - imperial are same as code units, metric are with some stupid small number behind it.
After all, it usually is a minimal difference in the power, so I do not think the "inaccurate" value is that terribly problematic. Therefore I would keep it as it is.
-Passenger:Mail:Gold ratios are not yet affected, I will probably complete those after I am done testing the express trains, and then derive it from passenger capacity. I would expect something like 8:4:3 as you said, not precisely though.
The rest should be fine for now, monorail local trains might need some power decreases, but that later.
A little announcement: for those yet unaware, NUTS Unrealistic Train Set now hat its own wiki http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/wiki
Thanks again for the reports, hope you can enjoy this version a bit better
V
-I did not reduce power of fast monorails as they dont do all that well, and I improved maglev fast a little bit instead.
-The numbers in purchase menu stay as code values, at least for now. There is always going to be some setting wrong, metric, imperial or SI. Especially massive WTF is around power where both metric and imperial have "hp" as units but they are different - imperial are same as code units, metric are with some stupid small number behind it.
After all, it usually is a minimal difference in the power, so I do not think the "inaccurate" value is that terribly problematic. Therefore I would keep it as it is.
-Passenger:Mail:Gold ratios are not yet affected, I will probably complete those after I am done testing the express trains, and then derive it from passenger capacity. I would expect something like 8:4:3 as you said, not precisely though.
The rest should be fine for now, monorail local trains might need some power decreases, but that later.
A little announcement: for those yet unaware, NUTS Unrealistic Train Set now hat its own wiki
http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/wikiThanks again for the reports, hope you can enjoy this version a bit better
V
-
V453000 :)
- President
- Posts: 946
- Joined: 01 Feb 2011 11:22
- Location: Beer
Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
Hello!
On 1st April NUTS Unrealistic Train Set has been updated to version 0.4.8 (which makes it an average of 4 versions per month over the first year).
There have been added various things, one of which being the revolutionary WETRail!
Not just rails, at the moment two unique vehicles with their unique wagons navigate them, not to mention that each of the wagons has 9 drawn loading stages for eyecandy purposes!
Also as the rails are very specific, new signals are defined for them - those signals can be used instead of semaphores on all other track types except universal rail.
While some things like the signals, more vehicles or other things, are still in progress and/or will be enhanced and improved, here it goes.
Available from fruit vendors.
Enjoy!
On 1st April NUTS Unrealistic Train Set has been updated to version 0.4.8 (which makes it an average of 4 versions per month over the first year).
There have been added various things, one of which being the revolutionary WETRail!
Not just rails, at the moment two unique vehicles with their unique wagons navigate them, not to mention that each of the wagons has 9 drawn loading stages for eyecandy purposes!
Also as the rails are very specific, new signals are defined for them - those signals can be used instead of semaphores on all other track types except universal rail.
While some things like the signals, more vehicles or other things, are still in progress and/or will be enhanced and improved, here it goes.
Available from fruit vendors.
Enjoy!
- Attachments
-
- taster.png (355.8 KiB) Viewed 6851 times
-
SwissFan91
- Tycoon
- Posts: 2401
- Joined: 08 Feb 2009 18:36
- Location: Alberta, Canada
Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
This looks suitably mental! Well done 
-
V453000 :)
- President
- Posts: 946
- Joined: 01 Feb 2011 11:22
- Location: Beer
Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
Dear ladies and nutmen,
Due to immense sadness of THE SLUG - it felt lonely - it was necessary that they get some new friends.
After several futuristic studies it was discovered that other animals would eventually construct their own machinery and drive it by the year 2016.
Further study was able to accurately picture the eventual species which would possess such capability,
and their representatives are now to be found in NUTS 0.5.0, the 50th release of this train set.
NUTS can be gathered as rare fruit cargo, typically found on BaNaNaS flora per usual.
Due to immense sadness of THE SLUG - it felt lonely - it was necessary that they get some new friends.
After several futuristic studies it was discovered that other animals would eventually construct their own machinery and drive it by the year 2016.
Further study was able to accurately picture the eventual species which would possess such capability,
and their representatives are now to be found in NUTS 0.5.0, the 50th release of this train set.
NUTS can be gathered as rare fruit cargo, typically found on BaNaNaS flora per usual.
- Attachments
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- SLUGS2.png
- Rise of the animals: Animal Express!
- (52.94 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
LMAOWTF
I've got to try these out...
I've got to try these out...
Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
Suggestion: rename "Black Cow" to "Black Bull"?
Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | GarryG's Auz Sets
Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | GarryG's Auz Sets
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V453000 :)
- President
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- Joined: 01 Feb 2011 11:22
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Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
There is a prototype for everythingV453000 :) wrote: ...There have been added various things, one of which being the revolutionary WETRail!...
- TomPuddingsatStanleyFerry.jpg (35.74 KiB) Viewed 6525 times
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V453000 :)
- President
- Posts: 946
- Joined: 01 Feb 2011 11:22
- Location: Beer
Re: MADMEN EVERYWHERE! [NUTS Unrealistic Train Set]
Because I decided that unrealistic things are ugly and simply wrong, I made a realistic 1:1 visualisation of world situation by the year 2099
Enjoy!
Special thanks to frosch for massive help with coding
Oh and the tracks are PURR Universal Rainbow Rails, to be found on bananas. Cba making a new forum thread for it as I wouldnt read it anyway
Enjoy!
Special thanks to frosch for massive help with coding
Oh and the tracks are PURR Universal Rainbow Rails, to be found on bananas. Cba making a new forum thread for it as I wouldnt read it anyway
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