(W.I.P.) Northeast Corridor

[Plastikman]

one problem with my idea.. passengers from nyc to dc wont make money.. a year to go 8 tiles.... but i have ideas

hey bus, good to see you.... would love to see your ideas.. maybe you two should work together?


I like lego's ideas, but we dont have any of that stock.... yet

[Kevo00]

Do any trains run it non-stop in real life? If not they will have to call somewhere in the middle anyway - problem solved.

[rdrdrdrd]

Public has spoken, but i am gonna work with plastik on this, i know he has been wanting to make a NEC map for a long time. And when he is my editor that maps are outstanding

I love plastik's idea for the layout of the route and gonna run with that

glad to know i am 50% of the public

On topic

this blurb might help
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Pennsylvania Railroad Tunnels

Of more importance than the original enterprise of Mr. Haskin, extended as it has been by the company that now holds the franchise, is the great work being pressed forward by the Pennsylvania Railroad in order to provide terminals in the heart of New York City, and make connections with other systems.

Route of Tunnel. Its new roadway, devised for this purpose, will leave the main line a short distance east of Newark, N.J., and pass across the Hackensack Meadows to the west face of Bergen Hill. From this point the road will be entirely in tunnel under Bergen Hill, the North River, the Island of Manhattan, and the East River, reaching the surface about a mile east of the latter in Long Island City. The road will be double-tracked across the Meadows, and will pass under the North River in two parallel, single-track tunnels. These will be spaced 37 feet between centers, and at intervals of 300 feet will be connected by passageways that will ordinarily be closed by doors to prevent the air passing from one tunnel to the other. Under Manhattan Island the tubular construction will cease, and the two tracks will diverge into two tunnels, with three tracks each-- the main line and two sidings. These large tunnels will extend for about 1,000 feet, when they will unite into a four-track, single-arch tunnel, extending for a distance of 605 feet to the western end of a station or depot. The station will be 260 feet wide from Tenth to Ninth avenues, on the line of Thirty-second and Thirty-third streets; then about 560 feet wide to Seventh avenue. Its area will be about 27 acres, and it will contain about 16 miles of track. The lower level of the station will be devoted to the tracks; an intermediate level will contain waiting and baggage rooms, ticket offices, etc.

Eastern Division; Connections. The eastern division, beginning at Seventh avenue, will comprise two lines of triple-track arched tunnels, one underneath Thirty-second and the other underneath Thirty-third street. These will be continued for 1,600 feet, when each set of three tracks will unite into a double-track arched tunnel for a distance of 2,400 feet. The East River will be crossed by four single-track tubes, coming to the surface at Thompson avenue, Long Island City. At this point there will be a terminal yard, where cars will be stored, and where the motive power will be changed to electricity or steam, according to the direction in which the train is traveling. Electric power only will be used in the tunnels. Connection will be made from this yard, by bridge and railroad, with the Long Island system and, via Hell Gate, with the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad on the north shore of Long Island Sound. A large freight terminal is being built at Greenville, N.J., from which cars will be transferred to Bay Ridge, L.I., and will then be taken to the Hell Gate Bridge by means of a connecting railroad. The total length of railway to be constructed in New York is 4.2 miles; and the total length of main track, exclusive of side tracks or track in the station, will be 22.6 miles. The distance from the surface of the ground at Twelfth avenue to the base of the rail will be 65 feet, and at Fifth avenue 75 feet.

Fourth Avenue Station. The franchise provides also for a station at Fourth avenue and Thirty-third street, but this does "not include any right to connect at this point the tracks of the railway of the tunnel company with the tracks of any other railroad, for the continuous operation of trains over such tracks of the tunnel company and of any other railroad."

The undertaking is divided into two parts, and is being carried forward by two distinct companies. That portion lying in New Jersey, west of the State boundary line, which is about midway of the North River, is being built by the Pennsylvania, New Jersey & New York Railroad, while that portion east of the boundary and lying in New York is being constructed by the Pennsylvania, New York & Long Island Railroad. The eastern section is under the direction of Alfred Noble and the western under Charles M. Jacobs, chief engineers.

Cast-Iron Screw Piles. The sub-aqueous portions of the work are being built by means of shields in the usual manner. All of the tunnels under the two rivers will be lined with cast-iron plates. In the North River tunnels a novel engineering feature has been introduced. The silt forming the bed is sufficiently firm to preserve the tunnel in perfect alignment, but it was thought that if the heavy motors are allowed to bear directly upon the shell their weight, and particularly the shock due to movement, may produce settlements, or set up stresses, that would result in fracture and consequent leakage. This difficulty will be overcome by the introduction of cast-iron piles placed beneath the center of the inverts, at every 15 feet, and extended, if necessary, to a depth of I50 feet. The tops of the piles are to be filled with concrete to a depth of 15 feet. The load will be distributed by a system of stringers capping the piles and carrying the rails. Should there be any movement of the piles, under the loads carried, it will not affect the tubes, which will serve their proper purpose as enveloping casings. After a certain length of shell has been completed it will be bulkheaded, placed under air pressure, and the piles screwed down from the interior. The piles are 27 inches in outside diameter, the screws being cast upon a shell 1.25 inches in thickness, and are made in sections 7 feet long. The screw, formed upon the lowest section, is 4 feet 8 inches in diameter. After one section has been screwed down another will be bolted to it, the process continuing until firm material has been reached. Grout under heavy pressure will be forced around the outside of the shell in both soft material and rock, and each tunnel will be lined with concrete.

Cross-Section. The tunnel is of new design in its cross section. The track is to be laid in a trough slightly greater in width than the widest car, the sides of which extend nearly up to the window sills. Sidewalks will be formed upon each side at the top. Within the sides there will be conduits for telegraph and telephone wires, with high and low tension circuits. By the terms of the franchise the company pays the city $200 a year for the privilege of passing beneath the two rivers. Concerning this requirement, the committee appointed by the Rapid Transit Board to carry on preliminary negotiations with the railroad company said:

Franchise. "The annual payment of $200 for the routes under the North and East Rivers outside of pier head-lines is more than nominal, though it is not important. It may be said in general that. anyone who bridges a navigable river, or tunnels it so as to bring the opposite banks into easy communication without interference with navigation, confers great benefits upon the communities upon both sides of the river. Nevertheless, it is not practicable to certainly forecast the future, and your committee has, therefore, deemed it wise to affirm the principle of compensation, although making the rate for the first period of 25 years so small as not to be a material burden to the Pennsylvania Company."

For passing under the docks and bulkheads the payment is to be $0.50 per annum for the first 10 years and $1 for the next 15 years, for each linear foot of single track. The same rate is required for passing under the streets, with the exception of Thirty-second and Thirty-third streets, between Seventh and Ninth avenues. For the latter privilege the company will pay $14,000 per annum for the first 10 years and $28,000 for the next 15 years.

For the station at Thirty-third street and Fourth avenue the payment will be $14,000 a year for the first 10 and $28,000 for the next 15 years.

For the privilege of its main station the company will pay $36,000 per annum for 25 years, after which the compensation is to be readjusted. These annual payments cease if the company buys, for the sum of $788,600, that portion of Thirty-second street used by it. The franchise allows five years for the completion of the work.

In regard to the rental for the space within pier lines and streets, at so great a depth as not to interfere with underground structures or future rapid transit railroads, the committee said:

Principle Involved. "The Pennsylvania Company claimed, and not without reason, that its enterprise involved a large investment and serious risk; that it would bring enormous advantage to the city; that it would promptly and greatly increase the assessed valuations within a considerable area of the city, from which, in the increase of taxes, the city would derive a large and immediate increase in revenue; that the underground portions of the streets, nowhere approaching within 19 feet of the surface, had no present value; that the city itself made no use of such portions of its streets and might never use them; that, with unimportant exceptions, the city had never derived and may never derive revenue from them; that in foreign cities, and in other American cities, like rights had been accorded without compensation; that, in the city of Washington, the Pennsylvania Company had itself recently received such a right without rental, and that for the very enterprise now proposed the Pennsylvania Company has secured in Jersey City a right without rental. On these and other grounds the Pennsylvania Company claimed that the city ought not to require the payment of rental for the use of such underground portions of streets and dock property.

Franchise Valuable; Rate Law Determined. "Nevertheless, your committee was of the opinion that the franchise sought was in itself very valuable; that, although the enterprise would secure to the city highly important advantages, it was equally true that the advantages were mutual. Heretofore it has been usual in this city, as in other large American cities, to grant free of rental to railroad corporations traversing large sections of the country and which cannot be classed as urban, rights of way, over, on, or under any streets. But conceding that such a liberal policy in the past has benefited cities and helped to build them up with marvelous rapidity, it is also true that the railroad corporations themselves have been benefited in equal, and oftentimes in far greater measure. It would have been better for the cities, and more in consonance with sound policy in dealing with public property, that municipal authorities should have better appreciated the future value of their franchises. Your committee insisted that in this case a departure from the rule heretofore too generally prevailing must be made, and that in fixing the rental it ought to be assumed that, as the franchise was valuable to the company, and as it granted use of city property, the company should pay a fair rental. The committee was without precedent in determining the precise amount, but finally concluded that the best theory to adopt was that of an annual payment for trackage, and to fix the rate at one dollar per foot."

Balance of Values. The report concludes with the following pertinent remarks:

"It is estimated that in the city of New York there are elevated, surface and steam railroads aggregating nearly 1,500 miles of single track. While it is not the purpose of your committee to imply that every mile of them is equal in franchise value to each mile of the Pennsylvania tracks now to be authorized, your committee is decidedly of the opinion that very many miles, and especially those of some of the steam railroads, have now a corresponding franchise value, and that if there had been a reasonable appreciation of the future value of all these railroad franchises (elevated, surface, and steam) by the municipal authorities when they were granted, the city would at the present time enjoy, and in the future continue to enjoy, a fair proportion of the pecuniary benefit which now goes wholly to the railroads; not solely as the result of their operation, but, in very great measure, of the continuous development of the city."

Permanent Control. When this franchise was under consideration, the Pennsylvania Railroad firmly insisted upon the granting of certain privileges which it considered of vital importance to its plans. In building and developing its terminal, and in providing the necessary connections with existing steam railroads, it would spend from $35,000,000 to $50,000,000. The company expected to provide all the needed capital solely from its own resources. In time the business would assume proportions of great magnitude, and the city would be sure to derive its share of the benefits accruing therefrom. The company was, therefore, fixed in its determination to abandon the project if it were not assured of the permanent control of the improvements it was prepared to create. Without a grant in perpetuity the railroad might, at the expiration of its franchise, be deprived of all the results of its work. These considerations led to the changing of the rapid transit act so as to provide for grants of this character.

Amendment to Charter. On March 24, 1902, Mayor Seth Low sent to the Governor a bill entitled, "An act to amend the Greater New York Charter by adding a section in relation to franchises of tunnel corporations, for constructing and operating railroads to connect with other railroads, and form thereby a continuous line between points within and points without the City of New York." The following paragraphs from Mayor Low's memorandum on this bill are interesting:

"While the bill provides that a franchise may be granted in perpetuity for such a purpose, it carefully guards the right of the city to readjust the terms upon which the franchise shall be enjoyed, at intervals of not more than 25 years. The city is thus assured of the periodic opportunity to profit by any increase in the value of the franchise such as time may easily bring. The city is also assured of the right and opportunity to attach such conditions to the grant as public interests may require."

"Under these circumstances, I am of the opinion that a perpetual franchise in such a case may properly be granted; for the city is not deprived of the opportunity to profit by its increase in value. It is only deprived of the opportunity of using the franchise itself at the expiration of a limited grant. Inasmuch as the project in contemplation involves a tunnel under the North River for its completion. which tunnel lies outside of the city's control entirely; and inasmuch as that portion of the enterprise which the city does control is so vital to the Pennsylvania Railroad Company that it cannot afford to enter upon the undertaking except upon the grant of a franchise in perpetuity, I am of the opinion that this is a case in which good judgment justifies an exception to the general rule.

Basic Principle. "In this connection, it may not be amiss if I say that the provisions in the Greater New York Charter of I897, limiting the power to grant franchises to a grant for a term of years, which were the basis of the provisions of the present charter, were inserted at my suggestion, when a member of the first charter commission. It is also interesting to point out that the provision for a periodic opportunity for a readjustment of the terms of any franchises that may be granted, under Section 32 of the Rapid Transit Law, was also inserted at my instance, when I was a member of the Rapid Transit Board. It will not therefore be contended, I am sure, that I have ever been careless of the city's interests in these regards. The basic principle of the ground lease, which I have often urged as a model for the city in its dealings with its franchises, is the opportunity which such a lease affords for a periodic adjustment of the terms between the owner and the lessee. If this privilege is retained, it becomes to a certain extent a matter of discretion as to whether a franchise should be granted in perpetuity or not. I freely admit that I prefer grants for a limited period; but even so good a rule as this may sometimes suffer an exception in the public interest."

Law Enacted. The Governor sent to the Legislature an emergency message in behalf of the immediate enactment of the bill. It became a law; and established beyond question the power of the Board to grant such franchises as that desired by the Pennsylvania Company. This new legislation and the grants to the Pennsylvania and to the New Jersey tunnel companies have tended to establish the policy that, for all transportation purposes, the streets of the city, whether on the surface or below the surface, shall be dealt with in the first instance by the Rapid Transit Commission.

That Commission has consistently and effectively sought to guard against improvident grants of transportation franchises to private corporations. Whether railroad construction and operation be municipal or under control of private corporations, it has held that no railroad use of streets shall obstruct future rapid transit or other profitable use of the streets for transportation purposes; that the city shall receive compensation for the use of streets, and that the terms of such compensation shall be readjusted at reasonably brief intervals. If the Rapid Transit Commission had rendered no other service to the city than to promote and determine this policy, it deserves very high appreciation from the citizens of to-day and those who will come hereafter.

Usefulness. The stupendous work undertaken by the Pennsylvania Railroad will be useful in our city in a remarkable degree. The city will no longer be insular, so far as passenger transportation is concerned. It will have direct communication under the East and North rivers. This will serve greatly the convenience of people who are journeying to or from distant points, and also the convenience of the greater multitudes who go and come from their homes in the country or by the sea.

Future Effects. And this must follow. There are other railways that serve our city. For each of these new conditions will be created by the enterprise of the Pennsylvania people. It would be going far to say that these other systems must emulate in full the enterprise of that great railroad. But certainly they will be stirred to do what they can. And so we may expect more than one system of railway tunnels under the Hudson, and we may expect great improvements in the approaches from the north. Otherwise it will be said in the future that the Pennsylvania Railroad had the courage to provide not only for its own proper traffic, but also in such way as to gather to itself traffic that belongs normally to others-- that in fact it found great opportunities in the failures of rival lines. Some of these other lines command enormous resources. The real traffic of some of them is greater than that of the Pennsylvania. Surely it behooves them to look to the future.
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now the real test is seeing if we can get plastik to make a certain PRR steamer, the most powerful to be built at Altoona(http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/S_Alto.htm) and tested on their engine treadmill
HINT







Now one of these would be cool also

[bluebeetle]

Little something i drew up by hand, but rdrdrd seen it and drooled all over is comp. haven't bug plastik yet, he is working on something very very very very cool right now and i am so not bugging him.

side note: After researching and asking a few people, PRR did go under the hudson.

oh this map is gonna be fun

this grey scale is a complete rough skeleton, many things will change, i always start with these as a base to build from.

side note: delaware river runs next to trenton then goes eat then turn south then goes right through philly. But the track don;t follow the river. so the river shows up then disappears and reappears.

[busman]

Ok it sounds like the people like the idea of the nec map, this will be fun for me. As I grew up in nyc ridding up and down the nec for 30 years, one thing we need is a passenger doppler, on the maps that I have made one of the problems was the smaller cities took forever to start producing large passenger loads, you could start a train wiith agerat load form nyc and newark, but by the time you get to rahway the cities were hard pressed to keep producing large amounts of passengers.

Also the passenger trains need to have a near 100% no breakdown, with a 4 track main and trains ending at different stations along the line a breakdown really screws this map up.

There are a few trains we would need to make this really nice. A prr and pc e8, a b&o passenger set, a cnj gp40 and gp7torp, a cnj commuter car set, a septe aem7 and bomb cars. A septa silverliner, and some reading bluebird emus.

I'll start working on the map on Thursday and should have a starter base done by Thursday night.

Should I put in a highway system to run buses on we already have njt and greyhound buses, and trolleys for the phila area

[bluebeetle]

i am backing out of this, let busman take it (he seems to want the spotlight on this real bad), maybe i will do a cajun map instead, i know someone tried to do that in the past.

[rdrdrdrd]

if that is what you want,

i woulds not want any highways system to interfere with the trains

[busman]

Hey if you want to make the map go ahead, this was your idea in the first place and I don't really want to step on your toes. I just got caught up in the idea because its the area I grew up in and most of the maps that I have made for myself are based in that area. Hell if my laptop had not died a few months ago I had 6 different maps from the nec area

Nyc - phila, boston - wash dc, nyc - boston, the water level route to buffalo, and my fav the nyc commuter zone,

Its up to you bluebeetle if you want me to back off I will and give and help I can. If not I will get a beta map out to you and john later today

Lionel the busman

[bluebeetle]

no go for it, i have a ton of other maps to make

[lego_trains]

Okay, so did everyone give up?

[TrainKid1998]

I notied the PRR T1 Duplex. I think that would be a great idea. Here are some specs:
Builder Altoona Works (#5500–5524)
Baldwin Locomotive Works (#5525–5549, 6110–6110)
Serial number Altoona 4560–4584
BLW 72764–72788 (#5525–5519)
Build date 1942 (#6110–6111)
1945–46 (#5500–5549)
Total production 52
Configuration 4-4-4-4
UIC classification 2'BB2'
Gauge 4 ft 8+1⁄2 in (1,435 mm)
Leading wheel size 36 in (0.914 m)
Driver size 80 in (2.032 m)
Trailing wheel size 42 in (1.067 m)
Length 122 ft 9¾ in (37.43 m)
Height 15 ft 10 in (4.83 m)
Axle load 71,680 lb (32.5 t)
Weight on drivers 279,910 lb (127.0 t)
Locomotive weight 502,200 lb (227.8 t)
Tender weight Empty: 197,400 lb (89.5 t);
Loaded: 442,500 lb (200.7 t)
Tender type 180 P 84
Fuel type Coal
Fuel capacity 85,200 lb (38.6 t)
Water capacity 19,200 US gal (73,000 l; 16,000 imp gal)
Boiler pressure 300 psi (2.07 MPa)
Heating surface: Firebox 490 sq ft (45.5 m2)
Heating surface: Total 5,639 sq ft (523.9 m2)
Cylinders Four
Cylinder size 18.75 in × 26 in (476 mm × 660 mm)
Tractive effort 58,300 lbf (259.3 kN)

[kalvingp30fan]

was it neccasry to coppy the whole chart of wikipedia stats?

[SD89MAC]

was it neccasry to coppy the whole chart of wikipedia stats?

Apparently it was, though having lots of stats won't increase the chances of it being made

[kalvingp30fan]

They could have just posted the correct way to request something instead of all that useless (to Locomotion) information.

[rdrdrdrd]

it will be made, but it would have been made without trainkid, I have been pushing plastik to do it for over 8 months now

[kalvingp30fan]

Sweet!

[busman]

no i have not quit on this, i have been puttering around with a few design ideas for the map, i was'nt happy with the first few that i turned out,

should have a good base map to start working on in a few days

lionel

[bluebeetle]

it will be made, but it would have been made without trainkid, I have been pushing plastik to do it for over 8 months now

lol pushing plastik, that is one thing i learned never to do. I just take whatever he makes, its all gold anyway

[busman]

Map on hold for a little while. I am trying to upgrade to windows 7 and my laptop is fighting me all the way, as soon as I get it working I will get back to work on the map

Lionel the busman