Informational non-content on Bananas

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Informational non-content on Bananas

Post by charityalbumman »

Nite Owl wrote:Only v1.0 was uploaded to the Fruit Store by the authors/maintainers of this Grf. To get the latest version (v1.3) you will have to sign up at SimuScape and then go to THIS POST on the SimuScape site.
Thanks Nite Owl. Query; why isn't this GRF (and many others) up to date on the Fruit Store as you called it?
Last edited by peter1138 on 15 Feb 2013 19:12, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Let's give the good example and use proper topic subjects
Thanks for any help, Pete 8)
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by oftcrash »

I like this NewGRF - I really do - but uploading it to Bananas as a non-functional "informational" grf just to tell people to download it someplace else is questionable. But then to stick two exclamation marks (!!) in front of the name to ensure it shows up at the top of the list? Well, that's just bad form.

I'm new to this community, and I know there's been a lot of drama in the past, so I don't like stirring anything up... but I really dislike it when people game the system for their own agendas.
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by kamnet »

oftcrash wrote:I like this NewGRF - I really do - but uploading it to Bananas as a non-functional "informational" grf just to tell people to download it someplace else is questionable. But then to stick two exclamation marks (!!) in front of the name to ensure it shows up at the top of the list? Well, that's just bad form.

I'm new to this community, and I know there's been a lot of drama in the past, so I don't like stirring anything up... but I really dislike it when people game the system for their own agendas.
The !! wasn't added so that it shows up at the top of the list. It was the designation that was selected so that BaNaNaS users could easily see that it was an information-only NewGRF. It is only because of the sorting system that BaNaNaS implements that non-alphanumeric characters show up at the top of the list. The developers could also sort the list so that those characters appear last on the list. This was the best that OzTrans could come up with due to the issues that once a NewGRF is uploaded to BaNaNaS, it cannot be (easily) removed by the author, and requires a lot of effort by the administrators to do so, so the general rule is to not remove them unless in an extreme circumstance. Because of this, OzTrans wishes not to have his works added to BaNaNaS, but on the other hand, this policy excludes NewGRF authors from being able to make players aware that these NewGRFs exist. Most OpenTTD players are not registered uses with tt-forums or Simuscape, and otherwise would not know of them.
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by Supercheese »

For me at least, this new 'iGRF' does not show up at the top of the list, but rather right beside the other Bananas entry for BK Enhanced Tunnels...
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by oftcrash »

Again, not trying to cause problems. If this is seen as a legitimate update by the general community, that's fine. I'm just looking at this as a regular player who only recently decided to participate in the forums and don't know all the background. Its hard to discern intent from the limited information in the newgrfs, so I can only go by what's there and by the types of tricks used in other arenas. I'll go back to focusing on Mars :)
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by kamnet »

oftcrash wrote:Again, not trying to cause problems. If this is seen as a legitimate update by the general community, that's fine. I'm just looking at this as a regular player who only recently decided to participate in the forums and don't know all the background. Its hard to discern intent from the limited information in the newgrfs, so I can only go by what's there and by the types of tricks used in other arenas. I'll go back to focusing on Mars :)
Being a regular participant both here and on Simuscape, I can tell you that the only intent here is what you see at face value.
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by Transportman »

At my place it just pops up at the B, under the real version 1.0.

I have to agree with oftcrash, I find it a bit doubtful to place an information version. If you don't want to use BaNaNaS because you can't remove stuff after it is uploaded, fine, but then also don't use it to promote your work that then should be downloaded from other locations. But that is my opinion.
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by ChillCore »

!! This is a non functional post just to inform you that I call this BS.
You can read my functional post at http://www.WTFISTHISBS.com (registration and login required).

What's Next?
Pictures of me and my cat? Links to pornsites? Minecraft mods on bananas?
I have one of the latter ... with a little train. It even has a OpenTTD logo on the back so I can abuse that to justify my actions ... just need to fix some animations, provide opensource sounds and were good to go.

Good that I do not have access to Bananas or that iShit would no longer be there to begin with.
Being a regular participant both here and on Simuscape, I can tell you that the only intent here is what you see at face value.
The intent being ... abusing a fine service for some plain good old spam? Providing the good old rotting meat in a can that tastes the same way as it smells?
You know very well that Bananas is not intended to be a substitute for a FB page. If people do not want their NewGRFs on Bananas fine ... but that they keep their stupid iStuff for themselves too then.

Kamnet, I have always respected you and I still do but please ... don't try to make this look good.
Yes, you can polish a turd (proven by the mythbusters) but this one is not solid enough to even try.



Anyway as of now ... I refuse to debug any and all games that use any NewGRF advertised in this way and/or not available without logging in or registering or whatever anywhere. This is one tunnel too far for me.
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by Alberth »

kamnet wrote:The !! wasn't added so that it shows up at the top of the list. It was the designation that was selected so that BaNaNaS users could easily see that it was an information-only NewGRF.
Since when does !! universally mean "information only" ??? Is there a wiki page about it, or some other generally accepted reference?
It is not something we invented or proposed.

Unless you read something that explains the meaning of !!, nobody is going to know that. It had been much better if "information only" or "advertisement" would be part of the title. Then everybody immediately knows and understands its purpose.
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by PikkaBird »

andythenorth wrote:Yes it completely destroys the user experience
It's the end of the wooooooorld as we know it...

The "user experience" of bananas is fairly non-existent anyway. It's not much good for browsing. What it is useful for is downloading files you've read about somewhere else, or automatically downloading files required by a saved game or multiplayer game, and in neither case is the fake grf proffered by OzTrans helpful; people who want OzTrans's work because they've read about it already know where to get it, and people who need the files for games won't find it, because OpenTTD will be automatically searching by GRFID and md5.

"Information-only NewGRFs" will be downloaded by the kids who download everything, and will be ignored by everyone else. So I agree, it's not that big a deal. :)
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by planetmaker »

andythenorth wrote:Eh, just let it pass, it's not that big a deal.

Yes it completely destroys the user experience, and circumvents the point of Bananas, but if that's what the community wants to do, so be it? :)
As soon as we get bug reports about bananas or NewGRF lists being broken, it starts to become a problem with OpenTTD and its services itself which we are then asked to fix on the basis that user experience is made better.

Add to that the fact that bananas is a content delivery system and not an advertizement board... I suspect we next see NewGRFs which advertize blue pills or escort services?
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by PikkaBird »

planetmaker wrote:Add to that the fact that bananas is a content delivery system and not an advertizement board... I suspect we next see NewGRFs which advertize blue pills or escort services?
There's an awful lot of tosh on bananas. Is subjectively reviewing submissions a can of worms we really want to open?

It's a properly-formed newgrf file with a relevant url link. Aside from animosity toward the uploader, I don't see why people are objecting...
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by Pyoro »

So, due to the no-deletion-policy this thing will forever stay on bananas, but should it ever be deleted from Simuscape (which seems to be the point of only "linking". Though I doubt many will actually read that wall of text...) it'll essentially remain a dead-link? Somehow, I find this idea flawed. Might be different if there were a specific category for this type of GRF (though then it probably wouldn't need to be a grf ;) ), but as things are now ... looks a lot like desperate spam.
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by Alberth »

Pyoro wrote:...looks a lot like desperate spam.
I fully agree with that conclusion.
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by kamnet »

Alberth wrote:
kamnet wrote:The !! wasn't added so that it shows up at the top of the list. It was the designation that was selected so that BaNaNaS users could easily see that it was an information-only NewGRF.
Since when does !! universally mean "information only" ??? Is there a wiki page about it, or some other generally accepted reference? It is not something we invented or proposed. Unless you read something that explains the meaning of !!, nobody is going to know that. It had been much better if "information only" or "advertisement" would be part of the title. Then everybody immediately knows and understands its purpose.
It was what was decided on by the users over at Simuscape, who proposed and created thew NewGRF. Once you click on the listing of the NewGRF, though, the description makes it very clear what it is about. There are lots of NewGRFs listed whose titles aren't very descriptive, that don't even provide a proper or detailed description.
Pyoro wrote:So, due to the no-deletion-policy this thing will forever stay on bananas, but should it ever be deleted from Simuscape (which seems to be the point of only "linking". Though I doubt many will actually read that wall of text...) it'll essentially remain a dead-link? Somehow, I find this idea flawed. Might be different if there were a specific category for this type of GRF (though then it probably wouldn't need to be a grf ;) ), but as things are now ... looks a lot like desperate spam.
If it is ever deleted from Simuscape, then the informational NewGRF can be updated to reflect that.

I'm quite surprised over the animosity that this one file has created. Sure it's blatant advertising. The advertising is game-related, though, and thus I wouldn't consider it to be spam, it does serve a purpose. If you don't like it, you don't have to pay attention to it.
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by Pyoro »

kamnet wrote:If it is ever deleted from Simuscape, then the informational NewGRF can be updated to reflect that.
If that is good enough, might as well do it for the actual GRF?

I'm honestly surprised you're surprised that this would at best be controversial.
BaNaNaS is a content service, which offers Base graphics/sound And Newgrfs And Noais And Scenarios.

All this content is available via both this webpage, and the OpenTTD game client. BaNaNaS allows easy access to the latest versions of those files for everyone.

You can browse through all available files by selecting one of the four main categories at the top of this page. Download those files to your OpenTTD home directory, under data/, ai/, or scenario/, or download them directly via your OpenTTD game client.
It seems to invalidate everything written here. Indirectly, of course. Just feels to be a bad sad - some people put great effort into a really good idea, and then it's, I can't help but see it like that, sabotaged just like that. I can imagine that being rather frustrating.
But then again I'm not one of those actually involved, so if they're fine with it I suppose I'll live with it ;)
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Re: BK Enhanced Tunnel Set v1.2 (9-April-2011) [update]

Post by andythenorth »

kamnet wrote:I'm quite surprised over the animosity that this one file has created. Sure it's blatant advertising.
Advertising, meh who cares.

The problem here is that this grf is just a dumb thing to do that shows no thought or care for end user.

Bananas makes a promise to end user:
  • the deal with bananas is that you click 'get content' and you get content
  • in game
  • no faff
  • no need to open a browser
  • or learn wtf on your filesystem ottd stores grfs
  • or how to rescan
  • or be disappointed or confused
Someone is inevitably now going to try and fix this with change to Bananas Terms of Service, or some kind of moderation policy, or some other tedious finickety thing. There will be dramas and nitpicking and loads of other tedious crap, in walls of text, and pms will be sent and mods will be involved and it's just a load of BS.

Shouldn't be necessary. Problem shouldn't exist in the first place. It should be blindingly obvious that grfs like this are a bad thing for end users.

I tried to ignore this as a silly thing that might go away. Failed.
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