Cargo Distribution

[jub]

When you build complex network within a city, then at least on zoom-in level with connections is a big help. Otherwise there is no easy way how to determine weak parts of the network. And gathering this information from statistics of stations... hmmm

[Zephyris]

could the link data be overlaid on the main isometric view?

[Arie-]

Ah ok, so I'm not the only one who was thinking the zoom function on the small map is useful. But as the devs consider it not the right solution, indeed some other solution must be found to make that information visible.

[bokkie]

could the link data be overlaid on the main isometric view?

Interesting.. maybe as a transparancy option? (I don't have a clue whether that is possible)

[fonso]

Overlaying the link information over the main map view is certainly possible. However it's a lot of work and it's hard to get right, too. You'll probably need an extra window to toggle the cargoes and display details for links. The main view is much more colorful so you'll have to make good choices on how to display the information so that it's visible but still looks nice. It's also hard to avoid code duplication if you provide the same functionality in the main map and the smallmap. It's also sort of ugly to do that in the first place. Somehow I don't like the idea.

[ffpp]

As I'm totally not up-to-date: is there by any chance any discussion whether CargoDist should be ported to the main openttd trunk ? Like an on/off-switchable major feature. That would be quite cool. And would make sense as CD isn't being developed any further as regarding to page one of this thread.

[Creat]

I truly hope the removal of the smallmap-zoom is not permanent, as it's basically required to see what's going on in cities with lots of stations (trams, buses and whatnot) as jub mentioned. I'm also concerned about the link-capacities information (potentially) being moved to click-able stations as we (or at least I) barely ever need information about stations (and if I do I can just click on it in the main view). I need information about the links (which I can't click in main) and most importantly their usage. In the current it's already hard to see link usage (as it's only possible by the link-colors) - even if I'm all the way zoomed in in the minimap. But that's just my 2 cents ^^

However I'd LOVE to have those things displayed in the main view. I don't know if I've already suggested it here as well or just thought about it a lot, but it would make things so much more intuitive. You don't need to open the minimap to see something that is already displayed in the main view (stations, industries, ...) just to add the information about connections and (used) capacities. When using the smallmap you usually have to make it quite big to make use of it. Then you have to mentally map the displayed stations of the smallmap back to the main view (which you can barely see due to the size of the smallmap).
This doesn't just affect the cargodist-information (like links and their stats) though, it's at least equally annoying (if not more so) with resource views and the like, where the "mental back-mapping" becomes much more difficult as a lot of them aren't located close to or in cities. Also judging distances in the map is anything but easy (at least compared to main), so finding potentially profitable routes requires the aforementioned back-mapping (at least for me).
All in all: the possibility of having an overlay-layer for the main view capable of displaying the information currently shown by the smallmap - however faint it may be - makes me jump an giggle with joy!!! (sorry if I gave anyone a weird visual there...)

[fonso]

However I'd LOVE to have those things displayed in the main view. I don't know if I've already suggested it here as well or just thought about it a lot, but it would make things so much more intuitive. You don't need to open the minimap to see something that is already displayed in the main view (stations, industries, ...) just to add the information about connections and (used) capacities. When using the smallmap you usually have to make it quite big to make use of it. Then you have to mentally map the displayed stations of the smallmap back to the main view (which you can barely see due to the size of the smallmap).
This doesn't just affect the cargodist-information (like links and their stats) though, it's at least equally annoying (if not more so) with resource views and the like, where the "mental back-mapping" becomes much more difficult as a lot of them aren't located close to or in cities. Also judging distances in the map is anything but easy (at least compared to main), so finding potentially profitable routes requires the aforementioned back-mapping (at least for me).
All in all: the possibility of having an overlay-layer for the main view capable of displaying the information currently shown by the smallmap - however faint it may be - makes me jump an giggle with joy!!! (sorry if I gave anyone a weird visual there...)

Maybe it would be possible to add a special "full screen" mode to the smallmap. There it would be zoomed in to the same size as the main view, resized to cover all of the main view and drawn without window decoration and without the black background or the terrain. Like this the background would become transparent and all the remaining features would essentially get overlayed on the main view. Furthermore all clicks in the map would be relayed to the main window after handling them to keep the main view usable. We could use the empty button above the link graph button for toggling that mode. Just a wild idea. I'm not sure if it's possible. Especially the fact that currently you can only zoom in on the smallmap by powers of 2 might be a problem.

[Zephyris]

A full framework for overlay of advanced statistics/graphics over the main view would probably be more useful, and I think an excellent feature! A proper framework might allow other improved GUI features too; for example detail of cargo production and cargo reciept rates or similar.

[Eddi]

while that is certainly a useful thought, i don't think it'll be wise to blow up this patch with it at this point. it should be a separate project.

[Creat]

while that is certainly a useful thought, i don't think it'll be wise to blow up this patch with it at this point. it should be a separate project.

I actually agree (to some degree), unfortunately cargodist kinda needs something like this to work due to the complexity of the information that needs to be displayed. It would be much appreciated for other aspects of the game as well (like the aforementioned industry displays), but for those areas it's not as vital. Since the smallmap-zoom apparently has to go (since the devs dislike it so much) and the tool tips for the links are currently gone as well there currently is no way left to get accurate information about link capacities (especially for links between geographically close stations/stops). The colored connections are a great indicator but aren't always that visible on the smallmap-background - or discernible from each other.

So if some temporary overlay could be implemented somehow, like with the maximized semi-transparent map that is matched to the main view scaling and positioning it would be just great. If that turns out to be a lot of work or hardly realizable we'll just have to stick our heads together again to find some other way I guess

[damerell]

Since the smallmap-zoom apparently has to go (since the devs dislike it so much)

Perhaps the answer is to try and overcome this objection. After all, the smallmap-zoom is not devoid of utility even in a non-cargodist game.

[JGR]

There's nothing to stop the smallmap zoom functionality being moved into a separate patch for people to apply as they see fit, as cargodist is now...

Having cargodist in trunk, even if in a somewhat neutered form, is better than not having it in trunk.

[ostlandr]

Personally, I haven't played a non-cargodist game of OTTD in ages. Alternating between "vanilla" cargodist nightly build and Chillcore's patchpack.


I am too busy building a network to dig into the details of CargoDist. I can tell by the amount of passengers/cargo wanting to go from X to Y if I need to expand service. For example, for a city bus network, I generally use the railroad station and/or busiest stop as the network hub. But sometimes there will be a lot of passengers going to and from two busy stations in a city; then I assign an "express" bus to that route which goes direct, bypassing the hub. Same with cargo- if I see a lot of freight from X to Z building up at transfer station Y, I may need to start a truck line direct from X to Z to route some of that cargo around Y. This is especially true if there are already traffic issues at Y.
Sometimes I should build a rail spur to serve Y, but the city has probably sprawled out around it, and the Local Authority might not like me clearing the ROW and building another rail station.

There's nothing to stop the smallmap zoom functionality being moved into a separate patch for people to apply as they see fit, as cargodist is now...

Having cargodist in trunk, even if in a somewhat neutered form, is better than not having it in trunk.

[kamnet]

Currently playing using ChillCore's patchpack v11_6 and FIRS 0.5.5. I have a machine shop which currently produces engineering supplies for three different destinations. I would like to have one train service all three stations on a route, with only one stop at the machine shop to pick up all three loads. Doesn't appear that this is happening, there's no cargo yet available for the first destination, and it doesn't pick up the cargo for the other two destinations. Is this normal?

[fonso]

I have a machine shop which currently produces engineering supplies for three different destinations. I would like to have one train service all three stations on a route, with only one stop at the machine shop to pick up all three loads. Doesn't appear that this is happening, there's no cargo yet available for the first destination, and it doesn't pick up the cargo for the other two destinations. Is this normal?

How can I know what is really happening in your game? Please post a savegame.

It may take some time for the cargo distribution to react to changes in the available links. This delay is dependent on the "link graph recalculation interval" setting and on the number of isolated link graph components for that particular cargo. The longer the interval the more time is reserved for each component to be calculated and the longer it may take until your component is scheduled.

The more components there are for that cargo the longer the delay will be as the calculation is serialized for each cargo (but done in parallel for different cargoes). So if you have 20 single trains going from different machine shops to different destinations without forming a common network the delay for engineering supplies will be long. This particular problem hasn't shown up so far, though. The problem was always something else when this question was asked.

Also the interval is specified in days and Chillcore didn't adapt that to the daylength patch he also supplies. So if you have a long daylength the delay will be even longer. But again: Without a savegame I can only guess.

[trainmaster611]

Hey guys, what is the significance of [far end], [near end], and [middle] in the vehicle orders menu? I tried a search and looked at the wiki but couldn't find anything.

[kamnet]

Only affects where on the platform the train will stop. For example, if you have a short train going to a long platform where it's only going to reverse itself and come back the way it came, you may prefer the train to stop at the nearest end of the platform. For a longer train you may want it to go to the end of the platform in order to fill the platform.

[Hirundo]

I (finally) gave a shot at cargodist today and I have to say that it looks and works really nice. When looking at it through the eyes of the 'Average Joe', I noticed some stuff that was too difficult for said Joe to comprehend. There's a lot of such stuff in OpenTTD (a lot of all advanced settings, for example), but that's no excuse to not improve cargodist in this part, IMO.

Since Joe didn't really get far in his game due to a lack of time, I'll focus on some observations about the advanced settings window.

• Joe doesn't understand what 'Link Graph' settings are until he opens the tab. Perhaps 'Cargo Distribution' would be better.
• Joe doesn't know what 'EXPRESS' or 'ARMOURED' cargo is. IIRC ARMOURED was just described as 'valuables/gold/diamonds' in the old cargodest, that's clearer in my opinion. As for express cargo, I think nobody knows what cargos that exactly are (esp. when using grfs), so why use a separate category for those?
• The three percentages that govern demands/pathfinding don't need to be in the GUI in my opinion. After all, NPF/YAPF penalties aren't either. I think that those smart enough to know what these settings do can also use the console. 99% of all Joes will leave them at default anyway.
• As for the accuracy / recalculation interval, I guess these are mainly accuracy vs performance trade-offs. Perhaps you could provide some hints in that direction ("Warning, low setting impacts performance" in red or something), so Joe knows where to look if the game runs slowly.

Also, I noticed that cargodist is enabled by default even for old savegames. Although enabling it for new games may be nice, I'm not sure whether high-impact settings such as cargodist should be retroactively applied by default. I had the same issue with the Infrastructure Sharing patch, I disabled it there for old games using some afterload code.

[DJ Nekkid]

nice report Hirundo