FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

[FooBar]

Well, it doesn't really matter if they don't match completely, we just need to decide which one is the correct one.

The spreadsheet still has sand/water and grain/cane as seperate cargos, so I think sticking to the IDs from the tt-foundry website makes most sense, while we still can use the other values from the spreadsheet.

So I guess that's decided then

[andythenorth]

The spreadsheet still has sand/water and grain/cane as seperate cargos, so I think sticking to the IDs from the tt-foundry website makes most sense, while we still can use the other values from the spreadsheet.

@ FooBar: I've just been comparing against original TTD cargo IDs. I know we have a translation table, but as we agreed earlier, it's easier if things stay on the same IDs It mostly checks out ok...see next comment.

@ George: there are two variations from original cargo IDS, specifically
Food: FIRS 0B Original 0C
Water: FIRS 11 Original 0F

Wondered if there was a particular reason for those? I'd prefer to change them to match original IDs.

cheers,

Andy

[FooBar]

I'm all in favour of sticking to the original IDs (actually bit numbers) as much as possible. I'll code everyting to be in line with the original industries as much as possible. If there's any reason not to do so, a change is made quite easily afterwards.

Apart from that, I have some good news: my FIRSt code is actually working! Surely, I messed something up, but that only proves two things: that the code is working and that we can reuse existing TTD textstrings. I wasn't sure about the latter, as OpenTTD tends to mess up the latter...

[andythenorth]

I'm all in favour of sticking to the original IDs (actually bit numbers) as much as possible. I'll code everyting to be in line with the original industries as much as possible. If there's any reason not to do so, a change is made quite easily afterwards.

Ok, so I've updated the cargos list in the schema.
- Food is now 0C
- Water is now 0F
- Cotton and Wool are now 11 (flipped with Water)
I've also changed 'ID' to 'Cargo Bit' for accuracy.

[FooBar]

Some things have gone horribly wrong now
- Both Food and Reserved 1 are now 0C;
- There's no 0B (I suppose this can be Reserved 1);
- Sand, Cotton AND Wool are now 11;
- Sand is supposed to be 0F as well I think.

[Zephyris]

The ids in the spreadsheet are definately not up to date, you will want to change them...

[andythenorth]

Some things have gone horribly wrong now

Oops Wife-shaped interruption caused me to forget what I was doing. Fixed now.

[George]

Where the industry already exists in TTD, would it be a good idea to keep the same ID? http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... ustryTypes

Not required (see Action 0 for industries)

We will be reusing most of the TTD industries until the graphics are all finished, seems like same IDs would make life easier for coders?

No, they will not. See action 0 for industries

Also, Incinerator seems to be missing from the diagram, and Survey Camp appears twice (can you keep the one with ID 33 and delete the other one), thanks

Done

Could you group the industries according to chains?

Probably, I don't quite understand what you mean. Do you mean make a grouped view on my site

Yes, at http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries

[George]

I'm all in favour of sticking to the original IDs (actually bit numbers) as much as possible. I'll code everyting to be in line with the original industries as much as possible. If there's any reason not to do so, a change is made quite easily afterwards.

Ok, so I've updated the cargos list in the schema.
- Food is now 0C
- Water is now 0F
- Cotton and Wool are now 11 (flipped with Water)
I've also changed 'ID' to 'Cargo Bit' for accuracy.

according to http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... faultProps water should be 01 and Food 0B. I'm not sure that it is a reasonable change

[andythenorth]

according to http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... faultProps water should be 01 and Food 0B. I'm not sure that it is a reasonable change

I'm going by Cargo Bit Type A in this list
http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CargoTypes
Type A will of course correspond to position in cargo translation table, it just seems easier on the coder to keep cargo bits the same as original where possible, reduces thinking.

[George]

according to http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... faultProps water should be 01 and Food 0B. I'm not sure that it is a reasonable change

I'm going by Cargo Bit Type A in this list
http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CargoTypes
Type A will of course correspond to position in cargo translation table, it just seems easier on the coder to keep cargo bits the same as original where possible, reduces thinking.

I never build translation table that way
So, Where would be the usage of this? Action 0 and 3 uses translation table entries. So, why do we need to use Type A, not Type B? I see no profit

[andythenorth]

I've been working on a sand quarry...lots of sand extraction is from shallow pits that fill with water. There will be steam and diesel cranes for different eras (the teaser shows both). There'll be some more tiles with processing silos and things too.

sand_pit.png (92.01 KiB) Viewed 2796 times

[Roujin]

Why is it filling with water? It can't be ground water, as it's a lot higher than the water in the lower left of the sand pit. And even more if the industry is situated on a higher level...

[andythenorth]

Why is it filling with water? It can't be ground water, as it's a lot higher than the water in the lower left of the sand pit.

Well, the water to the lower left is actually a drainage sump for the main pit, the pit is over a layer of impermeable clay and fills with rainwater, which percolates slowly through the sandy soil towards the sump. Of course, it also rained heavily yesterday, which is why the level in the main pit is high *, and is also why everything in OpenTTD world now looks bright and clean

Or the other answer, which is 'because I drew it that way'.... if I went digging on Google Earth I'd be able to find you sand and gravel pits with water levels higher than an adjacent river, lake or estuary, but I think I should stick to the drawing

* I don't know why the sump level isn't also high following rain though. Must be a local geological mystery.

[FooBar]

Are we making them cranes animated? That would be sweet Don't know if I want to code that though...

Anyways, the cargo code is done, except for a translation table, but I assume that can be put in as soon as we need it. Cargo icons still need to be added as well. I think I have a go at them tomorrow.

[Jim Yates]

Hmm.. looks abit odd. I thought sand quarries filled with water after they were exploited. I think some maybe be deliberate dredging operations (with a man-made lagoon or alternately dredging active rivers or lakes), but most lakes at quarries (in sat imagery) are older disused pits - the areas of work are dry, and are worked by shovels/front loaders. But sand extraction is a niche topic, which I don't know that much about.

Depending on the size of operation, you might want to consider including a semi-portable screen. These things are quite often used by smaller quarries:

http://www.portablescreen.com/images/sand_gravel_lg.jpg

I guess this would contrast nicely with the gravel quarry which would have bigger, more powerful equipment (definately needs a crushing circuit in addition to the screens), which would be hidden away in buildings:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 6&t=h&z=17

[George]

I'm all in favour of sticking to the original IDs (actually bit numbers) as much as possible. I'll code everyting to be in line with the original industries as much as possible. If there's any reason not to do so, a change is made quite easily afterwards.

Ok, so I've updated the cargos list in the schema.
- Food is now 0C
- Water is now 0F
- Cotton and Wool are now 11 (flipped with Water)
I've also changed 'ID' to 'Cargo Bit' for accuracy.

After some thoughts I came to conclusion that there is no reason to use Type A IDs (there are only for Type B, but they are different). So I suggest to return IDs back.

[andythenorth]

Sand extraction:
http://www.rohrcorp.com/dredges_landbas ... ladder.htm
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/29403 ... fb6e_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34894745@N03/3258049078/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/shutterblind/3306993035/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antek101/2 ... 6/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93173492@N00/399124539/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/profiphotos/3069399020/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveburton ... 206458825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/languitar/ ... 4/sizes/l/

When I'm going to spend up to two days drawing an industry, I *don't just make this stuff up*

[andythenorth]

Are we making them cranes animated? That would be sweet Don't know if I want to code that though...

Not in 2009 they're not

[Jim Yates]

Sand extraction:
http://www.rohrcorp.com/dredges_landbas ... ladder.htm
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/29403 ... fb6e_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34894745@N03/3258049078/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/shutterblind/3306993035/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antek101/2 ... 6/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93173492@N00/399124539/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/profiphotos/3069399020/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveburton ... 206458825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/languitar/ ... 4/sizes/l/

When I'm going to spend up to two days drawing an industry, I *don't just make this stuff up*

I didn't say you made it up - only I'm not familiar with wet extraction techniques

A web search yielded this:

http://www.cheshire.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres ... apter6.pdf

I did look in the BGS minerals yearbook, but they only make the distinction between land-won and marine dredged sand and gravel, and not the subdivisions of land-won. However, given that Cheshire is a major producer of silica sand I assume that the statistics for sand production can be applied elsewhere to the country (70% dry, ~15% dewatered, ~15% wet).

Given there are potentially 5 other open pit style industries it might be nice to keep this one wet and potentially include one of those specialist onshore dredging barges. Or you could just keep it the way it is, after all TTD isn't a real-world industry simulator .

How much control does ttd give you when coding the industry graphics? Is it possible to to create more than two or three industry graphics which produce the same cargoes and have the same name, but look different in game (e.g. underground or open pit graphics, but otherwise being identical industries)? I'm not saying you should do this (you already have plenty on your plate), but I am tempted to have an attempt at creating a subset for FIRS...