Chill's patchpack v14_7

[bluebottle]

This is a build of v11_8 (r21765) for Ubuntu 10.04 (Lucid Lynx), using Chillcore's great patch pack. Packaged as a .deb for easy installation/removal/upgrade.
Yes, I'm still on the LTS release. This may very well work with 10.10, though; feel free to give it a shot.

• As with the distro OpenTTD package, you need to have the data files in /usr/share/games/openttd/data/.
• This build is unstripped to provide better (i.e. useful) core dumps/backtraces. This is similar to including the .pdb file for MSVC builds.

Download: openttd_chillcore-r21765M-no_debug-unstripped-i386.deb

Report all bugs or crashes to this thread.

[philipabbott]

Hi, I am getting a Can't raise or lower land here terraforming limit reached in new and saved games. I am using the latest patchpach v11.8

[NekoMaster]

Hi, I am getting a Can't raise or lower land here terraforming limit reached in new and saved games. I am using the latest patchpach v11.8

And I can't find any setting to change this behaviour.

[ChillCore]

Hi, I am getting a Can't raise or lower land here terraforming limit reached in new and saved games. I am using the latest patchpach v11.8

New feature to stop annoying land levelers in multiplayer.
http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/21728/

Wait a little bit and/or try to terraform smaller chunks of land at once.
Also see below.

Thank you Rubidium. /me likes

And I can't find any setting to change this behaviour.

Config file:

terraform_per_64k_frames = 4194304
terraform_frame_burst = 4096
clear_per_64k_frames = 4194304
clear_frame_burst = 4096

Basically you have a number of allowed tiles to terraform over a period of time. While terraforing the "tile count" becomes higher and when the limit is reached you are no longer allowed to terraform. While not terraforming the number goes down over time. The longer you wait the bigger the number of allowed tiles to terraforming becomes untill you reach the maximum allowed at once.
The settings above define how much tiles you can terraform/clear at once and how many tiles can be terraformed over a longer period of time.

I have not toyed around with these settings myself yet so I do not know what to set where.
I guess that the settings can be changed in the console also to not have to quit and restart the game. I also guess that in multiplayer only the server can define the numbers.
Please note the I guess * 2 -> not tested.


Edit:
Corrected explanation of settings in config file ...
It is terraforemin and clearing, not terraforming and how fast the pool grows again.

[philipabbott]

Thanks for the quick reply Chillcore.

[Lordmwa]

Anyway I still consider it unfair if you could charge differently for different companies.

Unfair but as in real life - here in the UK (not sure where you are from) some companies pay to run the more lucrative rail franchises but the less profit making ones the goverment actually pays the companies to some extent

Yes, in real life that can happen and does happen but in real life you can not adjust the daylength factor.

Please show me a savegame, in which you have not switched companies, where the ai is running on your rails or using your stations (railstation, port, vehicle stop or airport). After that and no sooner will I consider having a looksie at re-adding the individual IS options for singleplayer.
I will not add it for multiplayer and I will not consider doing so.

I am talking about switching companies - if an AI could do it that would be amazing.....

[oklmernok]

Wait a little bit and/or try to terraform smaller chunks of land at once.

It's OK, and it's working during the game, but I started a new game and I can't do any terraforming (this is the first thing I would liket do: just 1 tile and 1 step higher/lower): "Landscape limit reached".
Maybe it saved my last (previous) game configuration and try to use it in the new game.
It would be good to put something into the "advanced setup"
Landscaping limit: None/Easy/Medium/Hard
----
edit: chill's pack: r21765M

[NekoMaster]

Hi, I am getting a Can't raise or lower land here terraforming limit reached in new and saved games. I am using the latest patchpach v11.8

New feature to stop annoying land levelers in multiplayer.
http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/21728/

Wait a little bit and/or try to terraform smaller chunks of land at once.
Also see below.

Thank you Rubidium. /me likes

And I can't find any setting to change this behaviour.

Config file:

terraform_per_64k_frames = 4194304
terraform_frame_burst = 4096
clear_per_64k_frames = 4194304
clear_frame_burst = 4096

Basically you have a number of allowed tiles to terraform over a period of time. While terraforing the "tile count" becomes higher and when the limit is reached you are no longer allowed to terraform. While not terraforming the number goes down over time. The longer you wait the bigger the number of allowed tiles to terraforming becomes untill you reach the maximum allowed at once.
The settings above define how much tiles you can terraform at once and how fast the "pool" grows again.

I have not toyed around with these settings myself yet so I do not know what to set where.
I guess that the settings can be changed in the console also to not have to quit and restart the game. I also guess that in multiplayer only the server can define the numbers.
Please note the I guess * 2 -> not tested.

Well, I tried lowering a tiny bit of land after a month and I still got the same message, and it was a small 3x4 bump (next to a steel mill which i was going to serve)

[ChillCore]

That is strange to say the least.

In my own build (ubuntu 10.04) it works just fine ... my source is already bumped a few revisions but I have tested it before to see that if I could still terraform.

In the windows build there seems to be a problem indeed. I downloaded a windows trunk build (r21769) and that seems to be fine ...
I do not think it is related to the config file or new games because I tried my own config file and an older savegame on the windows build (ColdIce's) and it still does not work ...

I will have to check the source to see if something got merged in the wrong place while bumping. ?)

Is anyone of the selfcompilers having this problem?

[Mackensen]

That is strange to say the least.

In my own build (ubuntu 10.04) it works just fine ... my source is already bumped a few revisions but I have tested it before to see that if I could still terraform.

In the windows build there seems to be a problem indeed. I downloaded a windows trunk build (r21769) and that seems to be fine ...
I do not think it is related to the config file or new games because I tried my own config file and an older savegame on the windows build (ColdIce's) and it still does not work ...

I will have to check the source to see if something got merged in the wrong place while bumping. ?)

Is anyone of the selfcompilers having this problem?

I compiled on Ubuntu (r21769) and I'm running into this. I mainly do single-player so it's annoying to say the least. Loading a scenario I can't terraform, period. Starting a new game I can, if slowly. I'm sure this is a great feature for multiplayer but it ought to be possible to switch it off!

[ChillCore]

I compiled on Ubuntu (r21769) and I'm running into this. I mainly do single-player so it's annoying to say the least. Loading a scenario I can't terraform, period. Starting a new game I can, if slowly.

I have bumped my source to r21769 now.

I am puzzled ... I still can terraform in my old game, I can in a new game, I can terraform in Olkmernok's game, it works after loading a scenario and it works in the scenario editor. I even removed my config file away for a minute and let the patchpack generate a new one, I have not modified it and I still can ...
It seems that the limit starts at 0 when starting/loading a game and un-pauzing it ... so at first there are very few tiles that can be terraformed, after waiting a bit I can terrafaorm a few more at once ... (Could be my imagination though.)

I'm sure this is a great feature for multiplayer but it ought to be possible to switch it off!

I can try to change it in the patchpack but if you want it in trunk also (for singleplayer) you will have to make a request at FlySpray ...

Before trying to do that in the patchpack I will try fiddling with the settings a bit to see if it is possible to adjust them so that they act like there is no limit ...

[Eddi]

It seems that the limit starts at 0 when starting/loading a game and un-pauzing it ...

it really should start out at maximum, have you checked trunk, and, if applicable, report it?

I'm sure this is a great feature for multiplayer but it ought to be possible to switch it off!

the default values are chosen in a way that hardly ever one will notice the feature at all. unless you want to flatten the whole map or so...

just because you run into some kind of bug doesn't immediately mean the feature is bad.

[ChillCore]

It seems that the limit starts at 0 when starting/loading a game and un-pauzing it ...

it really should start out at maximum, have you checked trunk, and, if applicable, report it?

I have only checked if terraforming still worked in trunk.
I should still check if I can terraform larger chunks in the beginning of the game (ie. just after un-pausing). I will report if it does not as I think that is how it should work also ...
Reading the code suggest that there are two pools, one over short periods and one over longer periods of time.
In settings_type.h

Code: Select all

	uint32 terraform_per_64k_frames;         ///< how many tile heights may, over a long period, be terraformed per 65536 frames? 
	uint16 terraform_frame_burst;            ///< how many tile heights may, over a short period, be terraformed? 
	uint32 clear_per_64k_frames;             ///< how many tiles may, over a long period, be cleared per 65536 frames? 
	uint16 clear_frame_burst;                ///< how many tiles may, over a short period, be cleared? 

Do you hapen to know how many tiles can be terraformed at once (short period) when the pool is full?

The bad behaviour could indeed be a bug in the patchpack as I had to re-introduce ts.modheight_count (it was removed with the moreheightlevels patch) and maybe I forgot something somewhere ... that still does not explain why it works for me, is completely broken in ColdIce's build and semi works for Mackensen.



Edit:

Tested the downloaded (windows) nightly.

Terraforming large chunks of land seems to be fine from the beginning of the game. The only "bug" I see is that when terraforming fails partially, I presume because of the limit as there was nothing in the way and I cheated enough money, the limit reached message does not show. I do not know if this should be called a bug as the terraforming partially succeeded at the same time.
Terraforming is not limited in such a way that it becomes annoying for the player.

Tommorow I will test a self-compiled clean trunk and do some more testing with the patchpack code.
Time for nappy.

[BR 155]

I prefer an economic solution for the terraforming issue. It should be expensive enough so you have to think twice before terraforming large areas. This will also lead to more natural stations/track designs.

[Terkhen]

I prefer an economic solution for the terraforming issue. It should be expensive enough so you have to think twice before terraforming large areas. This will also lead to more natural stations/track designs.

Given enough time, you can get enough money to surpass any economical increase in landscaping costs via NewGRF basecosts.

[planetmaker]

I think both approaches make sense concurrently:

Raising the landscaping costs to near insane force people to think about the landscape, how to incorporate it, especially in the initially building phase. The hope is then that they'll stick to that behaviour once they have enough money.

The limit on the amount of terraforming done at once is mainly in order to avoid a person going mad at the map and destroying the fun for all other players, ruining it virtually for further use by leveling everything to sea level or alike. That is without this limit an issue for company which have lots of money, (especially if they should be unprotected) irrespective of the actual terraforming costs.

[broodje]

I much more like the economic limiting of terraforming as hard limiting it. Would it not be possible to raise the price 'per action' in a region of say... 15 tiles around the first terraformed tile? That way you can level pieces along a long track to fit in a station or bridge, while it makes it almost impossible to level a whole mountain. Just like the real thing, (I know, ottd isn´t a simulator) the more dirt you have to move from, or to a building site, the more expensive it becomes.

[_Robbie_]

Well, since you already must save amount of tiles terraformed per defined amount of time, can't you make terraforming costs increase with this value exponentially? Something like:
Total Cost = Base Cost + k * (Tiles Terraformed in last 30 days) ^ 2
Example with base cost = 100 and k = 5:

Code: Select all

Tiles tformed:        Cost for next tile:
        1                       105  
        5                       225   
       10                       600  
       20                      2100
       50                     12600

Maybe this is bit extreme, but it would definitely help to reduce extensive terraforming

[Rubidium]

The current default "limit" for terraforming is at most 4096 heightlevels at a time, with an average of 64 heightlevels each frame; a frame happens (when not fast forwarding) 33 times a second, even when paused. Thus it's not like that is anywhere near a limit you would ordinarily reach while playing "normally", except when normally implies terraforming the whole map flat. However, in that case you should just make a completely flat map in the scenario editor.

So the default limits should only affect you when you terraform enormous amounts of land. Otherwise you're probably not using the defaults.

It is true that some algorithm can be created to make the price for terraforming more than linear, though it would probably not influence pricing that much. Furthermore it makes the terraforming estimation even less reliably than it already is.

[ChillCore]

Tested some more ...

Clean trunk seems to work fine but sometimes I get a message "can't raise/lower land here ..." without the "terraform limit reached" part.
To reproduce:
- Set values to a low limit in the config file. (eg. 16 for long periods and 2 for burst)
- Raise some land and continue trying while the limit is reached.
- When clicking on land that has just been raised the limit message shows, when clicking on flat land next to your llittle hill (little because of the low limit) the wrong message shows.

Also with default values I could not trigger the "terraform limit reached" message at all.

I have not yet checked the clearing land behaviour in this regard and I can not (yet) consistently reproduce the above bug. So I have not yet reported on FlysSpray.


Then for the problem in the patchpack ...
For the self-compilers ... if you add line 291 to terraform_cmd.cpp:

Code: Select all

	TerraformerState ts;

+	ts.modheight_count = 0;
+
	/* Compute the costs and the terraforming result in a model of the landscape */

Terraforming works again but not yet correctly in regards to configuring the limits.
- If in the config file you set values to 0 then it works correctly -> no terraforming/clearing land allowed whatsoever.
- If in the config file you set values to 2 then clearing land works correctly but terraforming behaves as if tere were no limit.

As clearing land works correctly it should not be to hard to correct but I have not yet started messing with that code yet. I have been comparing trunk vs. patchpack behaviour first while messing with the config file.
I hope that it is easy to fix by checking what exactly changed in landscape.cpp when the limiting was introduced and to have a fixed diff soon.



About simply increasing the terraforming costs:
@BR 155:
There are GRFs on bananas that allow to raise the basecosts.
As Terkhen explained, given enough money it is no longer a valid option to stop the GameBusters.

About the incremental terraforming costs (based om modheight_count or not):
Is this something that can be done by grf or should this be hardcoded? I would not mind having something like that in OpenTTD.
Note that usually I play for the fun of building a network and for seeing my trains run around. I do not care much for the money in tha bank (Yes often I cheat money ...) so my opinion in this regard is not to be valued very high.


Edit: spelling.