[Univ] GRVTS (v1.4) and [OTTD] eGRVTS (v1.0)

[LaDoncella]

yay

r13850 frosch 2008-07-27 17:17:16 +0200 (Sun, 27 Jul 2008) 1 line
-Fix [FS#2146]: Fix resp. implement refitting of articulated vehicles during autoreplace.

one bug less

[cmoiromain]

maybe this has already be explained, but in this case I did not find it. Here is the question: why can't articulated vehicles overtake (in OpenTTD at least)?

[hammurabi]

Quick comment on the pretty horsies
I notice they all have the same have running costs...
Wouldn't having 6 horses cost more six times more than having one horse?

Also...

Stuff and such....

This a very good idea, Its a excellent feature of Long Vehicles.

PS Keep up the awesome work Zephyris.

[welshdragon]

For some of the OTTD servers they require a license, can we have one please?

[ostlandr]

Been testing eGRVTS extensively, as I love it and the 1880s era.

Few comments as follows. As always, these are mere suggestions, not ransom demands.

1. Four and six horse hitches should have higher puchase and running costs than two horse hitches.

2. Horse trams should have higher capacity than horse drawn vehicles, but the same speeds.

3. I don't really like the Traction Engine graphics. To me, they look more like steam lorries. I'm probably splitting hairs, but when I think of a traction engine, this is what I think of; i.e. a roadgoing locomotive: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~mstec/
The really nice sprites in eGRVTS look more like this to me: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/michael.wa ... arrett.htm

Traction engines were very powerful, but slow. Steam lorries were faster, basically horseless wagons. If I could draw, I would do steam traction engine sprites for you folks, which would basically replace the horses on the flatbed, hopper, and tank wagons, having slower speed but much higher capacity. Should be articulated, too, which means drive-through road stops The steam lorries as is are perfect for turn-of-the-century, and shoud be able to use the original road stops.

If I were balancing the set, I would have early steam conveyances have lower speed, higher cost, capacity and running costs than horses. Around 1900, steam and gasoline vehicles become competitive with horses on speed and running costs, but have higher capital (purchase) costs. By the 1920s, horses are too slow and weak to compete with trucks.

4. I think the steam trams are too slow. Any motorized vehicle on rails should be fairly quick. Possibly balance this out with higher prices and running costs, which give electric traction the advantage?

[Zephyris]

Yes ... I don't need the horses although they might be fun, but I definitely would like to be able to use the trailers [in TTDPatch] with the short tractors/cabs.

The problem is just the availability of vehicle IDs, there simply are not enough to do this without a major recoding (ie. to allow refitting of all vehicles to any cargo and change graphics accordingly). I may do it in the future given time...

Quick comment on the pretty horsies
I notice they all have the same have running costs...
Wouldn't having 6 horses cost more six times more than having one horse?

Yes they should, I had forgotten to adjust the statistics according to the way statistics for articulated vehicles work, see below:

Behaviour of articulated vehicle statistics:

Code: Select all

+-----------------+------+------+
|Statistic        | Rail | Road |
+-----------------+------+------+
|Date of intro    | Fro  | Fro  |
|Reliablity decay | Fro  | Fro  |
|Vehicle life     | Fro  | Fro  |
|Model life       | Fro  | Fro  |
|Climate          | Fro  | Fro  |
|Load rate        | Veh  | Veh  |
|Speed            | WO   | Fro  |
|Running cost     | Tot  | Fro  |
|Capacity         | Tot  | Tot  |
|Cost             | Tot  | Fro  |
|Sound effect     | Fro  | Fro  |
|Power            | Tot  | NI   |
|Weight           | Tot  | NI   |
|Tractive effort  | Tot  | NI   |
|Air drag         | NI   | NI   |
|Refit cost       | Tot  | Tot  |
|Retire early     | Fro  | Fro  |
|Misc flags       | DOF  | Fro  |
|Refittable       | Veh  | Veh  |
+-----------------+------+------+

Max = takes the maximum value from the vehicles in the consist
Min = takes the minimum value from the vehicles in the consist
Ave = takes the average value from the vehicles in the consist
Tot = takes the total value from the vehicles in the consist
Fro = takes the value from the front vehicle in the consist
Mat = values for vehicles in consist must match
WO = Fro if wagon override enabled of front vehicle, Min if wagon override disabled
Veh = depends on the vehicle, e.g. each vehicle can have a different load rate
NI = not implemented
DOV = depends on flag; for train tilts it's Mat, for the others it's Veh.

I don't really like the Traction Engine graphics. To me, they look more like steam lorries.

Thats because I originally wanted to do traction engines, then changed my mind! I will do some statistics tweaking...

... why can't articulated vehicles overtake (in OpenTTD at least)?

I guess because of problems with disconnecting when overtaking (which quickly leads to a crash), if you would really like this feature try making a suggestion at flyspray. You never know, it might already be there!

For some of the OTTD servers they require a license, can we have one please?

These sets are released under the latest version of the Attribution-Non-Commercial-Share Alike Creative Commons; ie:
Use and distribute freely for non-commercial purposes crediting me, Zephyris (Richard Wheeler), as the author with a link to this thread (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=33415). Modifications and adaptations can be made so long as they credit me as the original author, are for non-commercial purposes and are released under the Attribution-Non-Commercial-Share Alike Creative Commons license.

@ ostlandr
Great suggestions, I will look very carefully at these. Keep an eye out for the next release

[Brianetta]

For some of the OTTD servers they require a license, can we have one please?

These sets are released under the latest version of the Attribution-Non-Commercial-Share Alike Creative Commons; ie:
Use and distribute freely for non-commercial purposes crediting me, Zephyris (Richard Wheeler), as the author with a link to this thread (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=33415). Modifications and adaptations can be made so long as they credit me as the original author, are for non-commercial purposes and are released under the Attribution-Non-Commercial-Share Alike Creative Commons license.

That's good news. My OTTD server's web page makes all the newgrfs we use available for download, since getting the same version is more important than getting the latest version. That, of course, requires a license. Thanks!

To all the Standard regulars: Don't bug me about this, I will add them to the set. I just need time to do it.

[ostlandr]

Was looking for a picture of tram tracks on a dirt road/street, and found the following:

http://www.cable-car-guy.com/html/cchorse.html

This research was comissioned by the folks building the electric streetcars, so is probably skewed in favor of them, but it shows the various costs of running horse cars vs. cable cars and electric trolleys.

[Zephyris]

eGRVTS v1.0 out now! Download in first post.

Changes from beta 2:
Tweaked statistics:
Fixed semi with flatbed trailer introduction dates.
Balanced early (horse-drawn and steam) vehicle running costs, prices and speeds.
Changed horse-drawn tram and steam truck names.

Known issues:
Short vehicles are not actually short (ie. behave as a full length vehicle)

Compatibility:
Only compatible with the latest OpenTTD nightlies, r13850 or later.

[Zutty]

I didn't know there was an eGRVTS! Coooooool.

I must make my AI compatible with this set.

[wallyweb]

Compatibility:
Only compatible with the latest OpenTTD nightlies, r13850 or later.

Are you planning to do a version that works with TTDPatch? If not, may I suggest this topic be moved over to the OTTD section so as to prevent confusion?

[Zephyris]

GRVTS is the TTDPatch compatible version, eGRVTS is the extended non-TTDPatch compatible version. Both will be updated in this thread.

[hjxbf]

Thanks for a great set! This really makes it worthwile to start earlier games in OTTD, and enjoy them as well

I quickly set up a test game, and observed the following:
- I couldn't refit the horse cargo vehicles (flatbed and hopper) to other cargoes than the default one
- I was barely able to make a profit when using the two-horse passenger and cargo vehicles on fairly short routes (which later buses and trams have no problem being profitable on). The 4- and 6-horse vehicles were therefore out of the question. The two-horse passenger tram, however, worked fine, with its 50% higher capacity and identical running costs.

This is only some subjective observations after a ten minute test game, and I might be able to use the set more cleverly in the future (i.e. longer routes for vehicles, shorter for trams?), but it definitely proved a hard start profit-wise

[DanMacK]

That is also part of the challenge Trying to balance out profitable cargoes with ones that don't make as much. It's also possible you may lose mney for the first few years, start with a large loan limit and just pray for trains

[hjxbf]

Hehe, I definitely agree that the earlier parts of the game shouldn't be too easy! However, I did the test runs with passengers and coal, and they almost make money without being transported

And when starting a game in the 1850s, your loan would be long gone by the time the trains start to turn up (at least in the sets I'm using, if you know of some that have earlier trains than the UKRS or the CanSet, please let me know!).

[andythenorth]

And when starting a game in the 1850s, your loan would be long gone by the time the trains start to turn up (at least in the sets I'm using, if you know of some that have earlier trains than the UKRS or the CanSet, please let me know!).

Not many that I know of - takes time to add them. Heavy Equipment will offer some more RVs (traction engines) going back maybe as far as 1850.

@ Zephyris - is a Shire horse heavy equipment?

[Villem]

Now, I don't know if this is just a OTTD bug or intended feature, but the trams in GRVTS 1.3 let out the dock construction sound when they start(i.e leave a stop, come out of depot) in OTTD 0.6.2

[hjxbf]

Hmmm...

Tried another test game, with totally different results; this time I was printing money! I took a closer look at the vehicles' running costs in the two games (both in a Roest Patchpack build, with a daylength factor of 2):

First game: 6-Horse Passenger "Normal Size" Vehicle, $7200
Second game: 6-Horse Passenger "Normal Size" Vehicle, $900

Does anyone know which would be the correct one? Don't know why this happens, but I'll check for conflicts with other GRFs.

The refitting problem occured both times, though...

[DanMacK]

May have something to do with Daylength and running costs reflecting the daylength setting?

[hjxbf]

Both games had "Daylength affecting running costs" enabled. (I did try altering the daylength settings in-game, but the running costs scaled correctly up and down).

I've now tried starting many different games with different other GRFs enabled/disabled, but I've not been able to reproduce my incredibly expensive first game; all games since the second one have had similar running costs.