(Standalone) NG (+ Improved Ships) Set [developing]

[Toni Babelony]

@Snail & Purno: thanks. The sprites are already 6 pixels wide, but the the optical illusion that they are too broad may be from that they already are small. Mybe I should make them 5 pixels wide, but then again, this engine I made is quite wide for it's gauge:



@athanasios: I'll be glad to adopt the sprites for the ships if you have all the possible views from it... Otherwise I'm creating my own.

@michael blunck: the idea to have a narrow gauge orientated set is to have eye-candy. I'm not really sure if I'm going to implement standard-gauge trains in my set... I could do that, but the only rule then is that I have to concentrate on private railway rolling stock. This is because, also there, the choice in vehicles is also narrowed, and they are most likely to be specialized in only a few tasks and speeds.

It could be something like this:

Narrow-gauge: powerful engines, low price/costs, low speeds (app. 80km/h);
Standard-gauge: weak engine, high price/costs, low speeds (app. 100km/h);
Ships: strong engine, extremely low price/costs, high capacity, quite low speeds.

I'm also intend to make this set compatible with TTD, not only OTTD. In TTD though, it would probably be harder to play.

@Wile E. Coyote: that will help a lot! Is it okay if I adjust some of the sprites to get them to blend in well with the other sprites in this set? They seem a tad too light IMO.

[Raichase]

apart from the eye candy effect?

To be perfectly honest, a lot of things these days are driven by eyecandy. We've thrashed out all of the major gameplay enhancements out of TTDpatch, and now we're moving on to the more interesting, advanced things, that don't *change* gameplay much, but simply make things more efficiant.

The key is, with sets like the DBXL and the Can Set, you've got people wanting to then take the TTD graphics to the next level - ie, take it from a funny looking transport game, to a proper, transport simulator, using the challenge of the current graphics engine. And we have a lot of artists capable of doing that.

Looking at some screenies I've been taking with the Can Set, NABS, SAC-Trees, TTRSv3, NewStations, NewCargo and the UKRSI, it's like nothing we would have been able to comprehend 2-3 years ago... Back then, it was "temperate grass, cool trains, and default stations..."

[Wile E. Coyote]

Obviously, NG vehicles would be weaker as standard gauge ones but the usual advantages (lighter, thus cheaper track, smaller curve radii) couldn´t get implemented in TTD [*] at the time being, so there´s only the possibility to make them cheaper in general (lower price and maintenance cost)? Which could be deliberately done as well with any other (SG) vehicle in a set?

Now NG tracks are cheaper with new narrow gauge rails GRF update.

@Wile E. Coyote: that will help a lot! Is it okay if I adjust some of the sprites to get them to blend in well with the other sprites in this set? They seem a tad too light IMO.

Of course, just credit me properly.

[Toni Babelony]

Thanks for letting me alter your sprites. I'll try to improve them as well as I can. Of course you'll be properly credited!

I hope to start a website for this set soon, so all the details and motivations can be seen there.

[Wile E. Coyote]

You're welcome. If your version is better, maybe I'll use it for Serbian NG set (of course, with credits to you! )

[michael blunck]

[why narrow-gauge?]

To be perfectly honest, a lot of things these days are driven by eyecandy. [...]

Sure. But until now, IMO we don´t have anything which is just eyecandy, i.e. w/o a function tied to its different graphical impression. I mean, all those fancy graphics of vehicles, stations and industries are carrying new functionality as well.

Yes, o/c it´d be nice to have narrow-gauge equipment in the game, why not? I myself have been thinking over it quite a while and there has been some discussion about it in the past. Some train sets do include NG vehicles but apart from the eye-candy aspect, IMO there´s no proper legitimacy for NG inside TTD´s framework if only added to already existing transport means.

Because the game is set up originally in such a way that over time transporting means get more and more improved, i.e. at first you have rail track, then there´s monorail and at last maglev. Consequently, a new vehicle set should likewise start with NG and only after some time should move on to normal rail. Which I doubt the existing sets which include NG are doing.

OTOH, having a NG-only set makes even less sense IMO, because you´ll end up with a uniform set (except from its even smaller sprite size!) only weaker in terms of speed, power, capacity etc. Which more or less means only to down-scale a normal rail set.

Does this make sense?

My position is that w/o Oskar´s NewRoutes project, there´s no serious reason to include NG into a rail set and even with NewRoutes there should be some additional patch features which would make NG distinctive from standard track.

E.g., one idea which I had discussed with Rai some time ago would be to introduce weight limits for the different tracks in connection with different building and maintenance costs. This would allow to diversify between main lines (e.g. with an axle weight limit of 20 tons), secondary lines (e.g. 15 tons) and narrow-gauge lines (10 tons).

Something like this wouldn´t only be (useless?) eye-candy but would open up new and interesting game possibilities.

regards
Michael

[N8king]

Hello Toni Babelony!

I'm very glad to see you working on a ngrail-set and I realy like to have it in my games. As in my homeland styria, there is a very long ngrail-line, I dig out some technical informations and I hope this will help you to complete your work. There are also informations about locos and rolling stock. See attachet link.
I also like your ideas of improved ships and I saw a thread on the forums with some ships like the titanic, france and other passanger liners, but I dont remember the name. Sorry. Maybe you can find it, I'll try to search for it too.

N8king

http://www.stlb.at/bahnlinien/wissenswe ... albahn.htm

I just discoverd the passanger-steam-liners thread at the forums:
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=28121

[Toni Babelony]

If you start thinking like that you might as well make an 'ultimate-transportset' with cheap maglev trains...

This set is being made to add more fun to the game, not to make the game easier to play. Au contrâire! It makes it even harder to play. To my opinion, every time I start a game, with the hardest settings on, with the most difficult sets around, I always end up making incredible profits, so that it's no fun anymore...

So as I might conclude in a simple way:

Narrow Gauge -> Unique Realism -> More difficult to play -> More fun -> Profit!

I'm now making this set a stand-alone project, so there will be no downgrading for other tractionsets involved. I also have no intention to compete with your wonderful DBXL and other of you sets! I really love these sets and I have played continuous hours, if not days, with them, but I think TTD lacks a big hug of narrow-gauge and ships love.

Besides... How is this set able to compete with other sets that have higher speeds then 70km/h?

@N8king:
Thanks for the information! I've already looked at this company and I've added the E4 locomotive to my trackingtable. The trackingtable will be released when it's finished... It's really hard to find data on all the trains I have until now...

[wallyweb]

Hello Toni Babelony!

I like this concept for an ng rails set and I am looking forward to playing it. Featuring trains from around the world is a great idea. I don't know whether you intend to keep the original liveries or use the game's company colours but I hope you stick with the original liveries as much as possible.

Also, we certainly can use another ship set. The Irish had some ideas you might want to check out here. Do you intend to release the ships separately from the narrow gauge?

[Toni Babelony]

(...)I don't know whether you intend to keep the original liveries or use the game's company colours but I hope you stick with the original liveries as much as possible.

(...)Do you intend to release the ships separately from the narrow gauge?

I intend to keep the original liveries. Sometimes, and especially with ng-stock, 2cc wouldn't just be fit. Besides, most of the narrow gauge livery stuff from around the world have some in common with eachother. For example: Black steam engines, red diesels, green/brown coaches and brown/black/grey wagons... Of course there are some exeptions, but these are only trailers from MUs.

I haven't seen The Irish around lately. Maybe I should just draw these ships myself...

Ouch... This is gonna be a long and hard job...

[ISA]

If you would like to begin, you could start with a 'Shay' and some freight wagons.

Ok just started to working on that! But can You give some info/picture about it! Google can find some shay trains, but I haven't understand which one You mean!? Searching Mountain Expert don't give nothing aether!

[Toni Babelony]

If you would like to begin, you could start with a 'Shay' and some freight wagons.

Ok just started to working on that! But can You give some info/picture about it! Google can find some shay trains, but I haven't understand which one You mean!? Searching Mountain Expert don't give nothing aether!

Ah, Yes. I want a Shay C type in the set. IMO this is the most convenient and powerful type of Shay for a 750mm railroad:



I've almost finished the tracking table regarding the engines:

[michael blunck]

I'm now making this set a stand-alone project, so there will be no downgrading for other tractionsets involved. I also have no intention to compete with your wonderful DBXL and other of you sets

You´re completely missing my point. Why shouldn´t you have the right to make every set you want for TTD? Or what did you mean with "no intention to compete"? Besides, competition isn´t bad?

Once more: I just wanted to know whether there are any good reasons to include NG into railway sets besides the usual eye-candy argument under the constraints of TTD. Mainly because since a couple of time everyone seems to be crying for NG.

As to your plans to build a narrow-gauge only set, I´d like to stress my "scaling argument" again: if you downscale everything (vehicle sizes, power, speed, cost, revenues, industry output, ..., by a certain factor, you still won´t get a real "NG set" because you´ll only know by the label on it that it´s intended to be NG. Without having both (NG and SG) in one set, the game won´t profit from the gamer´s need to balance concurrency and cooperation of both systems - it´ll be nothing else than "another train set", just weaker and cheaper if there´s no comparison.

regards
Michael

[Toni Babelony]

What I'm trying to say is that I'm making this set, not only as an eye-candy, but also as a tribute to narrow-gauge and to improve gameplay for those who like to play it hard.

Another argument might be that I'm a total narrow-gauge nut. Narrow gauge has a different 'shwung' than standard gauge railroads and offer some romance that standard gauge can't offer. With this set I want to add this romance to TTD.

Maybe you've read over it, but I do have the intention to add a standard gauge section to the set. This will be, as I stated before, a minor part of the total. The SG section will therefore only have light-rail traction with small engines, but still bigger and more powerful then the NG part.

Ships will also add more dynamics to transporting. These should become an attractive replacement for standard gauge transport.

[michael blunck]

I'm making this set, not only as an eye-candy, but also as a tribute to narrow-gauge and to improve gameplay for those who like to play it hard.

That alone doesn´t need a special NG set. It would be sufficient to increase a couple of train-related cost.

Another argument might be that I'm a total narrow-gauge nut. Narrow gauge has a different 'shwung' than standard gauge railroads and offer some romance that standard gauge can't offer. With this set I want to add this romance to TTD.

Yes, I understand (I´ve heard that argument before, really ) but I still doubt if this could be carried over into the game given our scarce resources, both in pixel graphics and in NG-specific features.

Maybe you've read over it, but I do have the intention to add a standard gauge section to the set.

Possibly. I read "Standalone NG + Improved Ships Set".

Ships will also add more dynamics to transporting. These should become an attractive replacement for standard gauge transport.

IMO, they already are. Even when this is disputed in the OTTD sections.

regards
Michael

[ISA]

Ah, Yes. I want a Shay C type in the set. IMO this is the most convenient and powerful type of Shay for a 750mm railroad:

Ok. I start drawing tomorrow, when I'm back from work! Now I go and get a good sleep!

[Purno]

Once more: I just wanted to know whether there are any good reasons to include NG into railway sets besides the usual eye-candy argument under the constraints of TTD. Mainly because since a couple of time everyone seems to be crying for NG.

Except eye-candy, it would be realism, I guess. Gameplay wise, you could make narrow gauge way cheaper than ordinary rail (or rather, make ordinary rail way more expensive).



Anyways, I'm still worried about this set's compatibility with other sets.

[Toni Babelony]

Anyways, I'm still worried about this set's compatibility with other sets.

I don't know exactly with what sets this set would be compatible with. I'm expecting that all slots are occupied on other sets, so that's why I'm making a standalone version.

If anyone has an idea to what set this set sould be compatible with, please tell me so I can restrict myself on the numbers of the vehicle-ID's.

-EDIT- Added some new sprites of the HSB mallet (Class 99-59xx) and modern Polnish coaches with a fictional mail-van:

[michael blunck]

Gameplay wise, you could make narrow gauge way cheaper than ordinary rail (or rather, make ordinary rail way more expensive).

Yes, that´s the first idea which comes to mind when taking NG in consideration at all. In fact this is the primary reason in RL to built NG railways.

> Anyways, I'm still worried about this set's compatibility with other sets.

Don´t be worried, time will tell.

regards
Michael

[Purno]

Anyways, I'm still worried about this set's compatibility with other sets.

I don't know exactly with what sets this set would be compatible with. I'm expecting that all slots are occupied on other sets, so that's why I'm making a standalone version.

Which means it's compatible with no set at all.