Bundesbahn set [Planning & pasting - 2,13% done]

[Hyronymus]

That´s what I said numerous times before. However, does it make sense to have a second DB set at all? Given the fact that everything what had been possibly missing from v0.6 (!) has been included by the time? And that nothing of that possible deficiencies had been overcome by this second set since then? I.e. meanwhile a second DB set wouldn´t be an addition to the DBXL but merely a sub-set of it, just with different graphics.

regards
Michael

No, to me it doesn't make sense too but appearently it does (did?) make sense to some people.

Even you can't controll what people think is sensible, Michael. Live with the fact that some discontent users of your trainset want something 'better'.

[Purno]

That´s a totally wrong insinuation. Instead, I´ve always been open to any suggestion. Do you know my inbox? Do you read the german forums? Do you read the mailing list? Did you ever noticed how many of my ideas have been taken over by other people? They couldn´t have been such restrictive or limited then ...

I've never been at the german forums, or the mailing list. All I know is that you relatively recently registered at these forums. But I apologize for this statement.

As with regard to german train vehicles, there is already a set which fulfills all reasonable wishes. In addition, v0.9 introduces again 10 new locomotives/railcars, mostly for passenger transport.

I've not seen the new DB set and I don't exaclty know which vehicles Saskia did want to include, so I guess you're right at this statement.

But don´t argue about copyright issue with me.

Nopes, it has been done before already, IIRC.

AFAIR, it was a copyright question. Hyronymus was unsure which type of copyright the NS set would be under. And I didn´t only offer to "hand over the sprites" but I offered a completely coded NS-ICE3, BTW.

Could be, can't remember exactly.

Then why do you write it without knowledge? Apart from this, it is rubbish:

I write with the knowledge I have.

- which colours aren´t correct?
- which vehicles don´t look close to the original? (What does "close" mean BTW in TTD-context?)
- which "many" important vehicles are missing?

Please do answer those questions than rather accuse me by citing years-old assertions of a third party. And please remember, that the DB set has undergone some revisions since Saskia did write those sentences. And did you notice that although my "vehicles don´t look close to the original", Saskia simply copied them? Why did she do that if they "don´t look close to the original"? (BTW, see the title: "planning & pasting"!) This is just all useless stuff.

I did not know Saskia copied stuff. I know she put some of your vehicles in the tracking table, but those are properly credited, IIRC.

[michael blunck]

Live with the fact that some discontent users of your trainset want something 'better'.

I´d be happy if this would be the case. Because then I´d get an additional chance to improve the DB Set with regards to that.

The problem is, it´s not that way.

Instead, it´s just unsubstantiated babbling, and "ignorance" is my weak point ...

In fact, the whole thing hasn´t much to do with the DB Set, this is just by coincidence. I.e. if there´d be a "discussion" about building a second Canadian Set, I´d write the same. The only difference being that I know much more about German rail vehicles than about Canadian ones.

regards
Michael

[PikkaBird]

I.e. if there´d be a "discussion" about building a second Canadian Set, I´d write the same.

Well, DanMacK and I are effectively making a second Canadian set with North American Renewal.

I created the UKRS, but that's no slight on the BR Set (wherever it is) and shouldn't dissuade anyone else from having a go at creating their own interpretation of British Railways. Likewise, my new industry sets are not "stupid" or "rubbish" because of ECS, and the plane graphics I am currently playing with (see avatar) are not "stupid" or "rubbish" because of the existence of the Planeset. I'm making things exactly the way I want them, and having fun doing it.

Yes, the DB Set is very good, but some people will want a different experience from TTDP, and some people will just want to make their own graphics. You shouldn't take it personally, Michael.

In any case, it doesn't look like this set or this thread is going anywhere any time soon...

[michael blunck]

> You shouldn't take it personally, Michael.

No, I don´t take it personally, at least not with regards to the DB Set. Why should I?

But as pointed out numerous times before, the difference with this "set" is that there´s no concept behind, like it is in your case(s).

> some people will just want to make their own graphics

I always encourage them to do so. Nevertheless, I don´t think there are any people going to be involved with a second edition of the DB Set´s vehicles, not to speak of coding. Most of the people mentioned here are already working on numerous other projects, some of them for years. And because there are even more sets under development IMO it makes no sense to dig up this thread on a regular base.

> In any case, it doesn't look like this set or this thread is going anywhere any time soon...

Someone will dig it up in a couple of months again:

"Sorry for digging this thread up but is there still interest in this set? IMO it would be nice to have a passenger set of the german DB. Does anyone know if there´s a tracking table or a website for this set? ..."

regards
Michael

[Hyronymus]

That's how things sometimes go, Michael. Just like people new to TTDPatch always asking the same questions.

[DanMacK]

I agree with Michael on this one. Saskia's arguments 'may' have applied to the original DB set, but from what I've seen, the new DBSetXL is designed solely for its realism.

The copyright is perfectly within Michael's right to enforce, and beign a graphics artist myself, I can understand.

I normally give permission for any of my graphics to be included if somebody wants to use them and all I ask is for credit. That said, other people (Oskar, Michael, etc.) may choose to exercise their copyright in a different way.

There's enough room for all sets in the TTDP world, the NARS, USSet and Canadian sets all represent the same regions, but the latter 2 aren't company colour, whereas the NARS is. This set on the other hand, never really seemed to have a clear goal of what it was. A direct replacement for the DB set, a compliment to it or an alternative set.

I can see how some may have misinterpreted Michael's first post, but I also agree, as stated before, that he has every right to enforce the copyright as he sees fit, as does every other graphics artist and nfo coder out there.

This set appears to be effectively dead, so there was really no ned to resurrect it. Let old topics die, if there was any progress, I'm sure it would have been posted here.

[jvassie]

Hmm, my comments on this matter are similar to yours DanMacK... i agree wholehearetdly with Michael about the copyright issue, which was IMO very silly and utterly inconsiderate. However;

I´d be happy if this would be the case. Because then I´d get an additional chance to improve the DB Set with regards to that.

The problem is, it´s not that way.

Instead, it´s just unsubstantiated babbling, and "ignorance" is my weak point ...

Well, yes, its now much more easier for people to contact you with you being a registered member of the forums, as im very sure hardly anyone knew of the existance of the TTDPatch mailing list and how else to locate you. This set was first brought up IIRC, a loooong time before you joined here, and people were therefore very much in the dark about what you had planned for the next edition of the DB Set, and about for example, the possible inclusion of more passenger vehicles. So it was probably a common thought that there werent enough vehicles in the current set and it might be a good idea for a new set, which focused solely on passenger transport, and thus this set was born.

James

[lifeblood]

And this set did do something: it got Michael to register here, if I remember.

[michael blunck]

> And this set did do something:

Something good or something bad?

> it got Michael to register here, if I remember.

I don´t remember if it was this thread but o/c it was a discussion about copyright issues against a certain ChrisCF.

regards
Michael

[Hyronymus]

Let's not start that again, please. I suggest we all leave the copyright matter for what it's worth (not meant to offence anyone) and that new posts in this topic will only deal with the progress of the set. As intended.

[Spaceball]

@Michael

You say that you always encourage ohter people to draw their own sets. On the other side you say it does not make sense to copy an existing set. Thats not the case. Purno has made a lot different BR 420 for expample. I already said that a set like your DB Set doesn't make any sense. If there would be some other trains, from france for example, included it would make much sense to make this set. That there is a concept missing is definatly right.

cu, Spaceball

[Raichase]

If there would be some other trains, from france for example, included it would make much sense to make this set. That there is a concept missing is definatly right.

This is what clinched it for me.

Michael made a DB-only trainset.

Why don't you guys, instead of doing a "DB Passenger Set", do a "Europe Passenger Set", based on Germany, and the DB. Not having to cover freight locomotives or rolling stock means you have a lot of ID's free, and you could have all the DB trains you desire, as well as some french ones and austrian ones etc.

That way, people who desired an accurate, country specific game would use the DBXL. People who wanted a passenger only game in Germany would use your set, using the international trains for one off routes. And, it would also be a different set again, so that people just looking for a fun "next game" could just grab your set without deabting the difference between DB and DBPass.

Initially, it made a little sense, to have a passenger only set. But now that the DBXL has far surpassed this set in it's intentions, it becomes obselete. Rather than bleating at everyone else to change something, why not slightly change the target of the set, to be a Europe Passenger Set, based with DB+Int. Trains?

[Spaceball]

This is what clinched it for me.

Michael made a DB-only trainset.

Why don't you guys, instead of doing a "DB Passenger Set", do a "Europe Passenger Set", based on Germany, and the DB. Not having to cover freight locomotives or rolling stock means you have a lot of ID's free, and you could have all the DB trains you desire, as well as some french ones and austrian ones etc.

That's exactly my point. If this Set would be intended to follow that direction it would make a big difference to the DB set. Not to forget that other artists might let us use their train grafics.

I always wanted to have a big set with the ice and tgv included. If I am not wrong Michaels Temperate Set has the ICE 3 and the TGV PBA included but just a couple new engines. All the other engines are still the basic engines from the game.

cu, Spaceball

[krtaylor]

There are so many unique but not-quite-completed sets, that I don't see any good reason to embark on a second German set when there's already a very good one available. OK, maybe it's not perfect, but there are loads of unique trains that we can't play with because their sets aren't done yet. I'd encourage anyone interested in a second DB set, to consider perhaps whether it might be more fun to join a set in active development and help complete it.

All the arguments in the last two pages, have been hashed and re-hashed many times. I suggest that there be no more posts here until and unless someone wishes to post sprites, or a tracking table of some kind, or a theme.

[OzTrans]

Just to clear up a few matters ...

This set has never died; it only went to sleep. Because there are many other projects I currently work on, that take my time. Everything is only a matter of having enough time, and this set together with the Swiss Set had to give way to all those other projects. Once those major projects are nearing completion, then this set may just as well be resurrected.

... Concept ...

there has always been a concept, but it was never publicized, for obvious reasons (and I'm not going to mention them).

But, here is a summary :

. there are plans for a base set, that allows to play an entire game but with enough free vehicle ID's for one of several expansion sets. Each of these expansion sets have a strong theme, and they are :

a) passenger only transport, pre-1950.
b) passenger only transport, 1950-present day (before all rolling stock went all red).
c) international passenger only transport, including all European trains from neighbouring countries visiting or transiting Germany.
d) freight only transport.
e) futuristic trains, like the TransRapid and its many versions.

. once complete this set and its sub-sets would have little to do with any other set currently knowm. Surely, there are players out there, who would welcome such variety. These sets would reach into other parts of Europe with international passenger trains, and also include 'East Germany' as it was known in the past.

[jvassie]

If there would be some other trains, from france for example, included it would make much sense to make this set. That there is a concept missing is definatly right.

This is what clinched it for me.

Michael made a DB-only trainset.

Why don't you guys, instead of doing a "DB Passenger Set", do a "Europe Passenger Set", based on Germany, and the DB. Not having to cover freight locomotives or rolling stock means you have a lot of ID's free, and you could have all the DB trains you desire, as well as some french ones and austrian ones etc.

That way, people who desired an accurate, country specific game would use the DBXL. People who wanted a passenger only game in Germany would use your set, using the international trains for one off routes. And, it would also be a different set again, so that people just looking for a fun "next game" could just grab your set without deabting the difference between DB and DBPass.

Initially, it made a little sense, to have a passenger only set. But now that the DBXL has far surpassed this set in it's intentions, it becomes obselete. Rather than bleating at everyone else to change something, why not slightly change the target of the set, to be a Europe Passenger Set, based with DB+Int. Trains?

Thats a very good idea you have there Rai! I think it would be much more of a benefit to everyone than a set dedicated to German trains only. I put together a small list of possibilities if Int. trains

RAe TEE
RAm TEE
ICE 1
ICE 2
ICE 3
ICE T/ICE TD
EuroCity (trains to all of europe inc. panoramic coaches)
Cisalpino (trains from Stuttgart-Switzerland-Italy)
TGV's (upcoming TGV-Est line into Germany)
Thalys (PBKA and possibly PBA variety)
Eurostar (some services to cologne iirc)
ETR 470/ETR 480/ETR 500 (services from Italy thru Switzerland to Germany)

AFAIK Austria has no high-speed-international trainsets (only eurocity trains)

[jvassie]

Sorry for the double-post, just thought id post what i got to work on today (its the end of term btw), a Metropolitan BR101... I believe Spaceball is working on the coaches, im not sure about the loco, so i thought id have a go at it, ive attached the coaches so far as well, to give a good impression of what it could look like...

James

[Spaceball]

The coaches are finished. I don't think that there is any further drawing needed. The coaches look that plain. Your BR101 is a little bit to high, or my coaches are to small. The coaches have the same hight as the engine.

Bernhard would code the Metropolitan.

cu, Spaceball