Extended Cargo Scheme (ECS) discussion

[Pnaky]

it works here

But me no... :/

George: Thanks for your upload on tt-forums...

[cornelius]

Nice schema George. So in the UK narrow gauge set I would use the limestone ID to provide slate (as a parallel 'construction' vector). Obviously then the cement works would change to slate mill, and stop accepting sand, but aside from that it wouldn't disrupt the rest of the scheme. Sounds like it would work.

[George]

Because of the question about landscapes support, I’ve build a quick mockup to show the example of vectors change for tropics

[Sanchimaru]

2 ideas that came recently during the Spain set development:

> To change the classic "mail" and "valuables" cargos for "baggage" and "mail", and thus have banks be post offices, or centrals (in Europe there are very beautiful post central buildings)
That makes much more sense. Valuables are very rarely trasnported by train, it's much more common to bring them in small armored vans.

> To have secondary industries generate a minimum production.
As I said: It's not as if someone funds a company, builds the facilities, contracts the workers.... and then they all sit down and wait until someone decides to go and provide them with the materials.
I think it's a good idea that secondary industries (for example, the steel mill) had a minimum output, considering that they have their own small source of materials income. Make it a very small ammount, so that it's barely profittable to send a train there. You could handle it with 3 or 4 road vehicles (this production shall also depend on the industry type), and you wouldn't earn quite a fortune from there, but you can help the industry keep opened.
And then, if you send them materials, their production is increased, and you can begin creating a more advanced network for it

[krtaylor]

I like both ideas for the Spain set. Dunno if they're appropriate generally.

[George]

2 ideas that came recently during the Spain set development:
> To change the classic "mail" and "valuables" cargos for "baggage" and "mail", and thus have banks be post offices, or centrals (in Europe there are very beautiful post central buildings)
That makes much more sense. Valuables are very rarely trasnported by train, it's much more common to bring them in small armored vans.

I do not like the "baggage" part of the idea, because "baggage" is a thing that goes directly with the passenger and that's why should not be represented in the schema directly. In case of tourists it is coded as 125 kg weight.
The idea of mail offices, which are a special buildings and have production depended on population, amount of houses and amount of officies sounds Ok. But for this case mail should untouched, while buildings have to lose the mail acceptence and production.
The idea of removing valuables has no reason for me for now.

> To have secondary industries generate a minimum production.

If you mean 20-22 units of cargo, than it sounds Ok. That means the production amount (prop 12,13) of 2, right?

[Sanchimaru]

But the fact is that there are baggage cars and mail cars. Not always passengers bring all the baggage with themselves.
And in modern times I haven't seen a valuables train car... as I said, they are transported in very, very small vans only.
Besides, the term baggage doesn't mean only you hand trunk or bag; there are also big packages, and items that don't exactly belong to the mail cathegory... for example: cars. In Spain, at the end of some passenger trains, there is 1 or 2 car carriers that brings the passengers' cars. Those cars would count as "baggage" , not as "cars", since the passengers are "bringing it with them". That is also widely done in boats and passenger ferries.
For having this, however, I think we should have the "baggage" cargo produced in a low rate, something like currently valuables are, but to be a well paid item.
In the other hand, mail would still be produced more or less in the same way as it is now, but produced and provided only to specific post offices (that can also accept the "baggage" cargo, as a part of parcels, deliveries, etc.)

About the secondary industries production; yes, that's what I meant, a very low production, but enough as for being mantained with some sort of low capacity vehicles.
However don't ask me about properties, I know nothing about coding...

By the way, I've been checking the current cargo scheme, and there is one feature that called my attention: is the brick factory provided only with coal and oil, or also sand and limestone go there? in both cases, it seems odd:
> bricks are no way made of coal or oil
> If we have 2 industries accepting the same cargo, and sending to the same place (construction works) that's a bit odd too. I'd drop the brick factory, seems a bit weak. I know bricks are important for the construction, but glass is too and it is not provided in that scheme.

[michael blunck]

is the brick factory provided only with coal and oil, or also sand and limestone go there? in both cases, it seems odd:
> bricks are no way made of coal or oil
> If we have 2 industries accepting the same cargo, and sending to the same place (construction works) that's a bit odd too. I'd drop the brick factory, seems a bit weak. I know bricks are important for the construction, but glass is too and it is not provided in that scheme.

The "brick works" uses "clay" as raw material and needs "coal" to fire its kilns. However, clay would be intrinsic to that industry. That´s because of two reasons: firstly, clay wouldn´t be transported to brick works in reality instead, brick works are placed at clay deposits, and secondly in this way one precious slot ID could be spared.

Of course, this would be possible with yet more industries, e.g. the "glass works" could be built at natural sand deposits, thus making the need for "sand pits" unnecessary.

And no. We won´t have multiple parallel industries (using the same input and sending output to the same destination).

That´s why there´s a distinction between "brick works" and "cement works".

regards
Michael

[krtaylor]

"baggage" is a thing that goes directly with the passenger

Obviously you have not travelled by air lately.

[wallyweb]

"baggage" is a thing that goes directly with the passenger

Obviously you have not travelled by air lately.

Methinks krtaylor may have lost a suitcase or two.
You're almost right ... the bags are supposed to fly on the same aircraft but sometimes go in the other direction.

[Sanchimaru]

I still think that:

> a brick factory mantained by coal and oil sounds weird from a player's point of view. Your point about the clay is understandable, but a new player that is told to bring coal and oil to produce bricks would be puzzled. I think that things need to be simpler.

> I still consider that there are way too many industries in that scheme... I honestly think that you could drop the brick factory and instead provide glass to the construction industry.

[George]

But the fact is that there are baggage cars and mail cars. Not always passengers bring all the baggage with themselves.

You can say, that baggage is 20% of passengers cargo and make the graphics for each 5-th passenger wagon to be drawn as baggage wagon (or to draw them at the end, for example, last 2 from 10).

And in modern times I haven't seen a valuables train car...

I saw it about 3 or 4 years ago last time. As far as I know they are still in use.

as I said, they are transported in very, very small vans only.

May be they are so small in Spain? Well, it can be removed in any mod.

Besides, the term baggage doesn't mean only you hand trunk or bag; there are also big packages, and items that don't exactly belong to the mail category... for example: cars. In Spain, at the end of some passenger trains, there is 1 or 2 car carriers that brings the passengers' cars. Those cars would count as "baggage" , not as "cars", since the passengers are "bringing it with them". That is also widely done in boats and passenger ferries.

But it goes WITH you and has the same destination and time of arrival.

For having this, however, I think we should have the "baggage" cargo produced in a low rate, something like currently valuables are, but to be a well paid item.

Where should it be produced? I think it should be included into passengers. Splitting passengers into local and long distance would make more sense, but not for now.

In the other hand, mail would still be produced more or less in the same way as it is now, but produced and provided only to specific post offices (that can also accept the "baggage" cargo, as a part of parcels, deliveries, etc.)

No problem with post offices.

However don't ask me about properties, I know nothing about coding...

:shoked: who will code the Spanish set?

I still consider that there are way too many industries in that scheme... I honestly think that you could drop the brick factory and instead provide glass to the construction industry.

Well, dropping the whole vector sound more reasonable. The player can do it easily.

"baggage" is a thing that goes directly with the passenger

Obviously you have not travelled by air lately.

You mean you fly to New-York and your baggage files to New-Mexico?

[krtaylor]

Yes. So you try to avoid checking the bags, you carry them on and cram them into the luggage compartment. Some airlines are better than others, though.

[onodera]

I still think that:
> a brick factory mantained by coal and oil sounds weird from a player's point of view. Your point about the clay is understandable, but a new player that is told to bring coal and oil to produce bricks would be puzzled. I think that things need to be simpler.

Well, if you draw a clay quarry as a part of a brick factory, any player will understand that clay is excavated on the spot.

On the other hand, steel mills are also built really close to iron ore mines.

[wallyweb]

On the other hand, steel mills are also built really close to iron ore mines.

In Canada this is not true. Steel Mills tend to be built near reliable sources of coal and/or energy. The situation may vary in other parts of the world.

[Sanchimaru]

Well, if you draw a clay quarry as a part of a brick factory, any player will understand that clay is excavated on the spot.

On the other hand, steel mills are also built really close to iron ore mines.

Yes, but my point is that things have to be more straight:
iron > steel > goods
or maize > food
or wood > paper > goods

As I said, the point that clay wouldn't be transported, but rather at hand in the factory itself is reasonable; but it's not effective from a gameplay point of view.

Also, I don't think that the whole construction vector has to be let down; indeed cement is a very commonly produced item all around the world. It's just that the brick factory as it works now doesn't look good for me; but it can be solved some other way.

About valuables: think of the difference between an accident on a 6 valuables cars train or in a small van. Maybe in other countries they transport valuables in huge ammounts at one time, but in Spain and Japan I see them trasnported in small security vans:

Also, I tried to do a search for valuables cars, armored cars, or trains, etc. And at most I got in the 6th page a picture of a toy flatcar with the words FORT KNOX on the side.
The rest were military trains.
Instead, a search for baggage cars gave in the first page a lot of pictures of them from all around the world.

[lifeblood]

Question about the schema, and I apologize if it has been addressed, for I did do a scan of many previous posts, but I may have missed it: is it customary for cement to be transported by trains in Europe? I mean, you'd need train cars that mixed the cement on the go. How do you propose this cargo be moved?

[DaleStan]

I think you're confusing cement and concrete, lifeblood. Concrete=cement+sand+water.

[lifeblood]

Verywell, I stand corrected. So cement trucks actually carry concrete, got it.

[SHADOW-XIII]

since we still can have some industries (there are some slots) would it be possible to create FOOD STORAGE or GRANARY ?
currently I have some troubles with selling food ... towns are very unstable