[NRT] RattRoads - 1.2.1 released 05-20-23!

[Andrew350]

Hi LaChupacabra, Garry answered most of this before me but I already wrote this so I'll post it anyway

Such a question: in what direction do You want your addition to develop? Will it be a part of Ratt Roads or a separate addition?

I think for now Garry and I are working on separate sets, with the idea that Garry's set will act sort of like an add-on, but still fully functional on its own. So RattRoads is like the basic stuff and Garry's roads will be more additional eyecandy, with the option to play with either one or both. Maybe once the dust has settled and we've both figured out what we want to do for sure there is a possibility of some merging, but for now there's still lots of work to do

If the direction marking method cannot be made dependent on the type of road...

I wish, but no that is not currently possible.

It is nice that you have added distinction for metric and imperial speeds. This variant with cosmic velocities (mps) is unnecessary.

Yeah it's a bit ridiculous, but OpenTTD has the option so why not. I'd love to meet the person who actually uses that option

Most speeds, however, would require minor adjustments, because instead of e.g. 60 km/h it turned out 59 km/h.

This is actually a known bug in NML where the speeds are incorrectly rounded despite being set properly. This should be fixed in an upcoming update, so just ignore that for now

In addition, players can only reduce these speeds or turn them off, which is not the best solution, because it does not include sets at all, where there are much faster vehicles. The good thing is that the default type of roads that build cities has a sensible, more urban restriction. Setting "difficulty" should also affect on speed limit for basic road.
By the way, "Difficulty level" doesn't fit well for the speed limit level setting.

I changed the setting name in RattRoads, but I must not have sent Garry an updated lang file when he copied the code over. Oops

EDIT: Oh, and the speeds not being ideal: I understand the speeds may not be perfectly what everyone wants, but such a parameter is the only sane way of doing this at all, it isn't practical to set speeds for each road individually. I am open to suggestions for tweaking the existing speeds though, so I'll look at your figures and could even add a new option for faster speeds altogether if that's desired

It can be boring, but the snowy roads look really endearing and are worth it to get a bit bored. In the case of dirt or gravel roads, this would rather not be too time consuming. For example, some time ago I converted a dark dirt road into a winter and desert version only by changing colors. I don't think you need more. You can, but you don't have to.

Yeah, I did the initial conversion for dirt roads with some GIMP magic, but that only gets so far. It still needs quite a bit of hands-on pixel work to get it looking right. You're right I don't have to, but I'm just too picky I guess

These files cannot be distinguished which is newer and which is older.

Hmm, yes it looks like Garry isn't incrementing the NewGRF version, we'll have to make sure he does that

[LaChupacabra]

Hi Andrew,

It is nice that you have added distinction for metric and imperial speeds. This variant with cosmic velocities (mps) is unnecessary.

Yeah it's a bit ridiculous, but OpenTTD has the option so why not. I'd love to meet the person who actually uses that option

The detail is that the game is talking about m/s which means meters per second, not miles per second

the speeds not being ideal: I understand the speeds may not be perfectly what everyone wants, but such a parameter is the only sane way of doing this at all, it isn't practical to set speeds for each road individually. I am open to suggestions for tweaking the existing speeds though, so I'll look at your figures and could even add a new option for faster speeds altogether if that's desired

You will never satisfy everyone with the general settings. There are simply too many possible variants and that's why the best addition with the tracks is NuTrack where everyone can set the speeds what they need. However, if you are convinced that the overall setting is better, the speeds I gave (50/70/90/110/130) are probably the most common among countries using metric units.
For the "low" variant they could be 50/60/80/100/120 - this gradation is also common.
For the "lower" variant: 40/60/70/80/100 - this variant is used in Japan, which has probably the most restrictive speed limits.
For the "high" variant: 50/70/100/130 / no limit - such restrictions are typical for German roads.
For the possible "higher" variant: 60/80/100/140 / no limit - it is a combination of the highest restrictions from different countries.
I don't have any suggestions for the mph version yet. Anyway, here is a list of world speed limits.

When setting restrictions, it is worth taking into account the reality of the game, and there the speed of vehicles is one of the key parameters taken into account when choosing vehicles. If the restrictions are too restrictive, many vehicles lose their raison d'être.
In the case of gravel roads, there is also no point in limiting the speed too much, because with larger productions of mines or farms to which players will build such roads, it will soon turn out that the vehicles will drive with a string one after the other, which will not look good at all. It is also worth knowing that some mine dump trucks reach really not so low speeds on such unpaved roads. Once I saw a movie with such a colossus (equal as Kilimanjaro Mining Truck from HEQS) that drove along such a road flush with another car that was on the highway or normal road at that time. I've tried but I can't find this recording right now. Here it would be useful possibility to set the vehicles so that they can ignore some (or all) speed limits on specific roads. Thanks to this, police cars or ambulances from Eyecandy Road Vehicles would not have restrictions on asphalt roads, while certain off-road vehicles could ignore or increase restrictions on gravel roads. Maybe it would be worth thinking about adding the right road marking for future use?

File and version naming

Don't know how you ended up with so many version cause each time I upload a version here and you copy it into your "newgrf" directory it should overwrite the previous version. I suggest you delete all the files of my roads from your directory and download the last version I did. I don't change version numbers yet until I have something that closer to a more permanent solution.

Unfortunately, this is often ignored, which makes the list of additions just a bigger and bigger mess. Each version, including and maybe especially a test version, should be marked accordingly in my opinion. Removing previous versions is not an option, because how would I even later compare the newer version with the older one?

Fences

I think the best solution would be to add a version of fenced roads as an option. In the case of Australian roads, versions with fences could be standard, because it is actually quite a common sight. From what I have noticed, it is possible to condition the fence display depending on what is on the road next to it, so the fences between the roads could disappear or take the form of an energy-intensive barrier or a concrete wall. It would also be good to improve the conditioning for the fences on the south side - I have the impression that this is not working properly.

Fences 1.png (65.21 KiB) Viewed 5810 times

Direction markings

That is something I been looking at too .. maybe have a object sign to place on side of road with a fake road overlap to cover the arrows. That something I hope to work on soon.

But this is not about fakes, but about a different way of showing direction in the form of a vertical sign. Signs as objects are ok, but you can't put them everywhere.

Industrial roads

The ISR industrial road are same as used in ISR. I like to try use some buildings from ISR with a overlap section so it will hide the bus stations and loading bays. So hope this will overcome that incite. The lines do look a bit odd on these roads, but that how it is in ISR.

In my opinion, 1: 1 copying of obvious graphic mistakes does not make sense. Whenever I look at this intersection, I get the impression that their author could not decide whether they should draw it for left or right-hand traffic.
With the help of a saw blade, without playing pixelart, I made several alternative versions of the main intersection. Its just only examples.

ISR intersections.png (65.58 KiB) Viewed 5810 times

[GarryG]

Hello LaChupacabra,

I'll let Andrew360 answer the first few questions as coding is his specialty .. he codes and we both draw.

Fences

You could be right about making a special AuzSet will look into it. But if you load RattRoads and my RattRoadsAll you have the option with the Asphalt roads to use the one in RattRoads with out a fence for in towns and the one I did in RattRoadsAll with a fence to use out of town.

But as you mention a set just for AuzRattRoads might be an idea.

Industrial Roads

Your right about how the ISR roads are at junction it does look a bit confusing. If the makers of ISR don't mind I see if I can make cross roads and T-Sections look a bit different.

Something I am working on in mean time and hope I have it available for you all to try later today.

Change this design

Lane Changes-1.png (44.4 KiB) Viewed 5804 times

To look like this .. unfortunately vehicle do not change lanes smoothly they do a zigzag course where the curve is hidden.

Lane Changes-2.png (54.77 KiB) Viewed 5804 times

[GarryG]

I think I got this working properly with the Lane Changes.

Lane Changes-3.png (63.96 KiB) Viewed 5787 times

The junctions look good even if the vehicle don't use it properly.

So that you know what version I up to I added the date .. Updated: 10th January 2020 and will change this each new issue.

DetailedNewGRF-1.png (10.98 KiB) Viewed 5787 times

Like to try?

[wallyweb]

Your right about how the ISR roads are at junction it does look a bit confusing. If the makers of ISR don't mind I see if I can make cross roads and T-Sections look a bit different.

ISR is GPL v2 so do whatever you want.
I suggest very strongly to keep to the artistic theme of the ISR roads as this is what makes them unique.
Once you have the intersections you want for the roadtype set, I can copy and replace the sprites in the station set.
As for credits, use the ones that appear in the "detailed NewGRF information" panel of the "NewGRF Settings" window and simply add your name to the list.

Here are the ISR road sprites.
Note that these are station tiles. NOT road tiles, so you will probably only want to work with the top row.

indstatrRoad_tiles.png (11.25 KiB) Viewed 5675 times

EDIT: Added the two empty platform tiles which could also be used as road tiles.

[GarryG]

I suggest very strongly to keep to the artistic theme of the ISR roads as this is what makes them unique.

Thanks Wallyweb .. I will keep to the artistic to these and try a few ideas with the junctions.

Shall see what I can do.

Cheers

[kamnet]

Gary, can I make a suggestion that you go ahead and just change the name to AuzRoads? You're really kicking butt at this!

[GarryG]

I suggest very strongly to keep to the artistic theme of the ISR roads as this is what makes them unique.
Once you have the intersections you want for the roadtype set, I can copy and replace the sprites in the station set.

I stuck to the original design for the ISR road for most of it. Just a few changes at intersections. Also did a UK/Eurpoer version where the yellow dots at intersection are on opposite side of the road.

This what it looks like in Sub-Tropic and Temperate.

ISR Road Sub-Artic.png (83.27 KiB) Viewed 5710 times

ISR Road Temperate.png (53.51 KiB) Viewed 5710 times

I see a few already downloaded newgrf I place above, but this version contained 2 ISR roads the original I had and a updated version so you can compare the 2.
This has Updated: 10th January 2020 V2 where the other version just has Updated: 10th January 2020

Next issue will be after I hear from some of you if like the new ISR road or suggest some more tweaking.

I also be renaming it as several have suggested. I think AuzRattRoads should be the new name as the whole idea of this set is that it will work with the original RattRoads and it doen't make sence if I make the same that Andrew360 has already made.

[wallyweb]

I suggest keeping the ISR roads as a stand-alone road set in case a player should want to use the ISR station set but a roadtype set other than RATT roads or AuzRattRoads.
Perhaps call them "IRS Roadtype Set Add-on".

[GarryG]

I suggest keeping the ISR roads as a stand-alone road set in case a player should want to use the ISR station set but a roadtype set other than RATT roads or AuzRattRoads.
Perhaps call them "IRS Roadtype Set Add-on".

Great idea. If all like the idea in coding the ISR road is using code ID 15. If other codes have no objection could reserve this ID number for Industrial Road than all who has Fake Road in their different sets can than use it to make their own road and players can than choose which road they like by loading them as a stand alone.

Andrew360 and I could still make a Industrial Road to our liking using 15 and if you load say ISR Roadtype Set Add-on it will override the one Andrew360 and I make.

Hope you understand what I getting at

Anyway I will now make a stand along of the ISR Road and replace it in my set with a Industrial Road I think I would like.

[wallyweb]

Need to check with a dev or somebody to see if it is possible to have more than one roadtype GRF active at the same time without one overriding the other.
This might be possible when defining the labels in Action0 property 08. "RISR" sounds appropriate.
Just make sure to include "ROAD" in property 0F powered_roadtype_list.
Thoughts?

[GarryG]

Much thanks to Wallyweb with some ideas he gave me tonight.

I always thought that Andrew360 and I was limited to 16 roads we can have in our sets. I thought he can have 8 in his set and I have 8 in my set making total 16. I thought if we use same ID numbers those roads word clash. How wrong I was .. it all boils down to the LABEL name we give our roads.

So I been experimenting with that in mind. At the moment I have all these roads available in my game from 4 separate files.

List of Roads-1.png (40.38 KiB) Viewed 5603 times

The first 6 are from RattRoads, next 9 from Dirt Tracks to ISR Test are from my new set I started AuzRattRoads, next 2 ISR roads are from the new ISRRoadtypeSetAddon set I made (reason there is 2 so can compare the difference with the first one and the new one we making). The last 8 from my RattRoadsAll set.

Still got some tweaking to do and experimenting to see just what I be able to do.

The 2 Industrial roads I have in my AuzRattRoads for now will stay there, but will change the graphics.

So for now will have 3 game files .. RattRoads that Andrew360 is making, my AuzRattRoads and the ISRRoadtypeSetAddon.

Got a some tweaking to do with them before I can place them here.

Any suggestions let us know

Cheers all

[Andrew350]

The detail is that the game is talking about m/s which means meters per second, not miles per second

Hmm, not sure I follow? The only options are mph, km/h and m/s as defined by OpenTTD.

There are simply too many possible variants and that's why the best addition with the tracks is NuTrack where everyone can set the speeds what they need.

My only objection to doing that is that it would result in a ton of parameters, and the user would have to hand pick the speeds they wanted for every single one of them, every time they played. I certainly don't want to do that and I don't think the majority of people do either. I understand your desire for precise control, but I'd like to find a balance between ease-of-use and customization.

Keep in mind there are more roadtypes coming. Not just in RattRoads itself, but also in Garry's roads and other road sets; with up to 64 roadtypes possible in a game people will max it out eventually. Imagine having to go through 64 parameters and setting the speeds for all of them individually A one-and-done parameter is much easier, perhaps at the expense of not getting it exactly perfect, but it will help keep your sanity

And as for your suggestions for speeds, they look reasonable, so I've marked down what you've said and I'll figure out what changes to make next time I look at it

... Here it would be useful possibility to set the vehicles so that they can ignore some (or all) speed limits on specific roads. Thanks to this, police cars or ambulances from Eyecandy Road Vehicles would not have restrictions on asphalt roads, while certain off-road vehicles could ignore or increase restrictions on gravel roads. Maybe it would be worth thinking about adding the right road marking for future use?

Unfortunately I don't think this is possible. A vehicle will always obey the speed limit of the track it is travelling on. And if this were to ever become an option, I would think it would be up to a vehicle NewGRF to make that decision to ignore speed limits. I highly doubt this will ever happen though.

[GarryG]

LaChupacabra wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:17 am
... Here it would be useful possibility to set the vehicles so that they can ignore some (or all) speed limits on specific roads. Thanks to this, police cars or ambulances from Eyecandy Road Vehicles would not have restrictions on asphalt roads, while certain off-road vehicles could ignore or increase restrictions on gravel roads. Maybe it would be worth thinking about adding the right road marking for future use?
Unfortunately I don't think this is possible. A vehicle will always obey the speed limit of the track it is travelling on. And if this were to ever become an option, I would think it would be up to a vehicle NewGRF to make that decision to ignore speed limits. I highly doubt this will ever happen though.

This works same as trains .. If a train had a speed limit of 100 and was on a track that allowed 160, the train would only do 100. If that train was on a track that allowed 60 .. the train will only do 60. So I believe it up to those who make VR sets to maybe set the VRs to a maximum speed that certain vehicle can do it real and then the road it travels on will decide its actual speed. Than you can choose with the roads if you use normal speed or turn the speed off so VR can speed. So I think when Andrew360 and I finish our roads or at lest have a proper working copy it then up to the VR coders to decide do they update there VR sets to suit the roads.

[kamnet]

There are simply too many possible variants and that's why the best addition with the tracks is NuTrack where everyone can set the speeds what they need.

My only objection to doing that is that it would result in a ton of parameters, and the user would have to hand pick the speeds they wanted for every single one of them, every time they played. I certainly don't want to do that and I don't think the majority of people do either. I understand your desire for precise control, but I'd like to find a balance between ease-of-use and customization.
[/quote]

Maybe not a ton, but I don't think this is too unwieldy:
Set speed limit for slow roads: Default/Custom
Set speed limit for medium roads: Default/Custom
Set speed limit for fast roads: Default/custom
Road Type 1: Default/Slow/Medium/Fast
Road Type 2: Default/Slow/Medium/Fast
...

[GarryG]

I made the 2 new road sets. AuzRattRoads and ISRRoadtypeSetaddon.

This list gift you and idea what is in the sets.

List of Roads-2.png (28.28 KiB) Viewed 5508 times

The first 6 are from RattRoads original set.

Next 11 are from AuzRattRoads. However the first 4 of these will probably be removed. They are there so can compare that road idea with the one that Andrew360 made which is the "Natural Terrain set"

New Roads-3.png (25.18 KiB) Viewed 5508 times

The top left set .. Andrew360s road is the SE edge .. the other 3 edges are what I made from his work.

The last 4 in the list are included in ISRRoadtypeSetaddon. There are 4 Industrial Roads in this set so far. Top right and bottom left my own design and bottom right is a ISR Road.

I'll post the game files in a few moments.

[GarryG]

Here are the game files .. No idea when the next lot be available as I have a lot of work to do. Also see what Aussie roads I can make.

Any suggestions appreciated.

[kamnet]

Here is how I designed the roads at my attempt at ISR Roads back in 2011

[GarryG]

Would you like me to include those in the Industrial Set?

[GarryG]

As Andrew360 mentioned before he adding snow to some roads and he sent me the code so I can look at that idea too.

He did a great job on the sand road and I started to include snow from Re: Country Roads (NRT) over at viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76017.

Kruemelchen done a great job on some snow there and should look good on roads we and others do.

These show 2 roads using the heavy snow that Kruemelchen made. The dirt road also has the snow effect that Andrew360 made. I think they look great together.
Before it snowed.

snowroads-2.png (49.76 KiB) Viewed 5372 times

After it snowed.

snowroads-3.png (80.01 KiB) Viewed 5372 times

I intend to do all the roads in my set with snow tiles but could take me a few days to do..

All my roads at the moment are Australian design which are suitable for UK and Europe and any where else you drive on the left side of the road.