OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

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Was removing the possibility to buy/sell shares a good decision?

Definitely good
5
9%
Good
1
2%
Rather good
3
6%
I don't care
12
23%
Rather bad
4
8%
Bad
4
8%
Definitely bad
24
45%
 
Total votes: 53

LaChupacabra
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OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by LaChupacabra »

You may know, you may not, but soon the ability to buy and sell company shares will be removed. I don't think it's going to matter in online games as it's usually turned off, but in singleplayer games it was the only way to take over an AI company that will never be again in this game.
Shares - Buy or Sell.png
Shares - Buy or Sell.png (70.79 KiB) Viewed 4120 times
Personally, I don't like this change. Shares as a function in their current form have many disadvantages. Among other things, they allow you to take over companies for nothing (you pay for the money held by the purchased company, because this is the basis for the company's valuation, but by taking over 100% of the shares, you also take over the company's money, so in fact you pay almost nothing), buying the shares, as in mafia economies, is done without the consent of the company owner, the company that sells the shares will not receive any payment, and the shareholder will not receive the due share of the profit.
Yes, a lot of things didn't work as they should, but those could be fixed and most would be fairly simple fixes.
The developers instead made the decision to completely remove this element. In my opinion, this is a big loss, because it could be an interesting element, especially in online games - players, instead of giving or borrowing money, could invest in newly established companies, receiving a part of the profits of these companies in return. This will never happen, just like the possibility of taking over companies (except bankrupt ones).

What do you think about this?
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by Argus »

I think it's complete bulls***. You just need to fix it somehow so that it makes sense even in online games, and put a limit there that you don't buy 100% - Or it could only be available in offline play and for AI.
This approach - something doesn't work and we don't want to fix it, so we'd rather cancel it - I never liked it.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by odisseus »

How about only allowing to buy shares of the AI companies?

P.S. What about the compatibility with old saved games? I can think of at least one situation in which the inability to buy out AI companies would break the gameplay (no, it's not about the loss of investment money).
Last edited by odisseus on 30 May 2023 08:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by Redirect Left »

LaChupacabra wrote: 29 May 2023 20:30 Yes, a lot of things didn't work as they should, but those could be fixed and most would be fairly simple fixes. The developers instead made the decision to completely remove this element.
I know I am meant to be surprised, but looking at the direction of development on the main OpenTTD version, my unsurprised meter is *taps it several times*, huh, off the chart broken.
tldr; I voted bad.
Argus wrote: 29 May 2023 20:45 This approach - something doesn't work and we don't want to fix it, so we'd rather cancel it - I never liked it.
This is definitely a growing problem, there's an inherent growing issue not with the game itself, but with the attitude developers take towards it all. Either something is touted then never materialises, or materialises at a time even Bethesda would blush at. I suspect this is why developers have taken the Valve attitude of "if we don't mention or post unless we need to, we don't say anything dumb that is later used to any means later on"

Yes I know, developers aren't paid, etc etc, but honestly, i think they just don't actually care at this point. What they did back at the start, getting the OpenTTD project off the ground and remake TTD to begin with? Fantastic work, I admire the effort to get there, but lately? I honestly don't think they know where to go or what to do anymore.

Then they wonder why I never recommend the vanilla game to anyone, and have had several people jump in at JGR's version, love it and immediately dive in using features that'd be a laugh and "hah, glwtm8" in the main version.
I to a degree, know C++ but every time I think of making any contribution I just go, what's the point? Nearly everything seems to get rejected anyway.

I will end this rant here before I make an entire thesis on the subject, and trust me it'd be a long one too.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by skc »

There's several things I do which makes this change irrelevant:
1) I don't play online,
2) I don't play with AI's.
3) I have this option turned off within the settings.


As a somewhat of a counter-argument to both LaChupacabra and Redirect Left:
This is an open-source game, you're not forced to ONLY play the 'vanilla' OTTD. If JGRPP offers the features you want, then play that instead.
There's also nothing stopping you from starting your own fork of the OTTD codebase and changing whatever you want, to suit how you want to play the game.


Also, LaChupacabra, where your proof that shares are being removed in v14.0? What's the PR or Issue/Bug # on the OTTD Github?
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by Eddi »

It's a feature that i won't miss...

LaChupacabra wrote: 29 May 2023 20:30but in singleplayer games it was the only way to take over an AI company that will never be again in this game.
no, you can still buy out bankrupt companies.
LaChupacabra wrote: 29 May 2023 20:30Yes, a lot of things didn't work as they should, but those could be fixed and most would be fairly simple fixes.
come on now, if it were that easy to fix, why didn't anyone fix it in the last 30 years?
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by peter1138 »

The relevant PR is https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10709

The shares system was known broken and exploitable for many years.

In all those years, nobody has ever come up with a solution for it.

By removing the old shares system, there is now a clean slate to implement a non-broken, non-exploitable shares system.

So now is anyone's opportunity to design a shares system without the baggage of what went before, and make it a good feature.
He's like, some kind of OpenTTD developer.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by kamnet »

LaChupacabra wrote: 29 May 2023 20:30 In my opinion, this is a big loss, because it could be an interesting element, especially in online games - players, instead of giving or borrowing money, could invest in newly established companies, receiving a part of the profits of these companies in return.
As Peter1138 just said, there is now opportunity to create something better. Sounds like you have a great idea to replace it.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by Pyoro »

I don't really get the argument that it had to be removed first before somebody hypothetically maybe could possibly at some point one day come up with a better idea that then could perhaps eventually be included ... or possibly not. I'd have assumed that removal would come when such a proposal is at a stage where it's a realistic prospect for the near future.

That being said I don't really care. Just find it a weird choice.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by kamnet »

Pyoro wrote: 30 May 2023 11:45 I don't really get the argument that it had to be removed first before somebody hypothetically maybe could possibly at some point one day come up with a better idea that then could perhaps eventually be included ... or possibly not. I'd have assumed that removal would come when such a proposal is at a stage where it's a realistic prospect for the near future.

That being said I don't really care. Just find it a weird choice.
The argument was that nobody was fixing it, nobody wanted to fix it, so the vote was to delete it and that's one less issue the devs have to deal with.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by Captain Rand »

Is this actually going ahead?
If so then thanks a f*&%%£%^g bunch
The ability to buy out an A.I is an ESSENTIAL part of my gameplay.
There are others who say they don't care, or they don't use the feature. Please bear in mind that not everybody plays the way you do. This will COMPLETELY RUIN a very important part of the game for me. Please don't do it.
Why can't you just make it an option, with the default being "off".
Or add the option to the cheat menu. The code's already there. How hard could it be?
(And don't anybody dare tell me I can make my own fork, because if I could, I would, and I wouldn't bother asking you for anything. I'd just release it.)
Find a way to retain the option.

Pete.
Last edited by Captain Rand on 30 May 2023 13:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by Denswillow »

This is basically the worst possible change you developers have made. JGR's patch pack allows for infrastructure sharing and realistic competition between companies and that is now completely broken. I have been playing this game for 10 years now, and am now seriously considering quitting completely.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by jfs »

Denswillow wrote: 30 May 2023 12:55 This is basically the worst possible change you developers have made. JGR's patch pack allows for infrastructure sharing and realistic competition between companies and that is now completely broken. I have been playing this game for 10 years now, and am now seriously considering quitting completely.
Just like JGR has lots of changes that are not in main, main can also have changes that are not in JGR's patch pack.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by Captain Rand »

This ^^^^^^^
I use the feature to buy up an A.I. or merge it with another in the event it crashes. This saves the route as I make extensive use of Infrastructure Sharing.

LEAVE IT ALONE.

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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by Denswillow »

jfs wrote: 30 May 2023 13:14
Denswillow wrote: 30 May 2023 12:55 This is basically the worst possible change you developers have made. JGR's patch pack allows for infrastructure sharing and realistic competition between companies and that is now completely broken. I have been playing this game for 10 years now, and am now seriously considering quitting completely.
Just like JGR has lots of changes that are not in main, main can also have changes that are not in JGR's patch pack.
Yes, but JGR usually implements changes made in vanilla to his patch pack, so the feature is very likely to be added to the pack pack as well. This just shows the attitude of development team, that there is only one way to play, and all other features are "bugs" or "exploits" that should be removed because they don't personally use them.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by 3iff »

I often play with AI, but only because I can take them over at some point (if I wish to do that), but being completely unable to do so would mean I would be less likely to have AI in my games.

Why is it that some people (no idea who that might be) want the game to be played their way regardless of how others want to play.
My grfs have LOTS of options to allow lots of different ways of playing.
Shares NEED to remain as an option. I know it's a poor system but it's been like this from the start and I can live with that.

There are lots of ways of playing that I never use but I would never dream of removing them simply because I don't like them.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by Eddi »

Pyoro wrote: 30 May 2023 11:45 I don't really get the argument that it had to be removed first before somebody hypothetically maybe could possibly at some point one day come up with a better idea that then could perhaps eventually be included ... or possibly not.
it's really not the first time this was done. Most (in)famous example being the removal of PBS in the leadup to 0.4.5, which took like two years for someone to come up with a suitible replacement, and then another year until it was polished enough for inclusion.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by jfs »

Captain Rand wrote: 30 May 2023 12:09 Is this actually going ahead?
If so then thanks a f*&%%£%^g bunch
The ability to buy out an A.I is an ESSENTIAL part of my gameplay.
There are others who say they don't care, or they don't use the feature. Please bear in mind that not everybody plays the way you do. This will COMPLETELY RUIN a very important part of the game for me. Please don't do it.
Why can't you just make it an option, with the default being "off".
Or add the option to the cheat menu. The code's already there. How hard could it be?
(And don't anybody dare tell me I can make my own fork, because if I could, I would, and I wouldn't bother asking you for anything. I'd just release it.)
Find a way to retain the option.

Pete.
Is partially owning an AI company part of your gameplay?

My thought is that being able to buy 100% of a company in a single action would be much simpler to do, without having all the baggage that the "shares" system has.
Transferring all assets from one company to another has to exist in the game regardless (and was not removed), since it's required for the offer for a company to take over another one at the brink of bankruptcy.

It would be a very small change (I think) to add a way to just trigger a "100% buy out a company" single action, only available on AI companies.
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by kamnet »

"The ability to buy out an A.I is an ESSENTIAL part of my gameplay."
"There are lots of ways of playing that I never use but I would never dream of removing them simply because I don't like them."
"I have been playing this game for 10 years now, and am now seriously considering quitting completely."

I think everybody needs to take a step back and look at this from the developer side. This is NOT about forcing people to change their gameplay. It's very basic.

1. This feature is BROKEN. It doesn't work for many players because it doesn't work as intended or as players expect, no matter how many times the devs have tried to fix it.
2. The devs receive constant complaints about this non-working feature.
3. None of the devs are able to fix it in its current state.
4. Nobody else has stepped up to fix it in its current state.

Why is it wrong to blow it away and create space for somebody to come up with a better system that does work? Several have been proposed over the years. Instead of tearing our hair out over this broken system, let's concentrate on actually making a system that works as people expect it to?
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Re: OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

Post by odisseus »

jfs wrote: 30 May 2023 19:34 My thought is that being able to buy 100% of a company in a single action would be much simpler to do, without having all the baggage that the "shares" system has.

...

It would be a very small change (I think) to add a way to just trigger a "100% buy out a company" single action, only available on AI companies.
I think everybody would agree with that. However, it looks like the developers are going to remove the buyout option altogether, with the sole exception of bankrupt companies.

This is not enough. I can think of situations (in the unmodified game, not even considering JGR or other patches), in which the impossibility to buy out an AI company would totally break the gameplay.
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