I'm a complete amateur with signals - help!

[duffman69]

Recently got back into played OpenTTD, I love the game, I used to play the original TTD years and years ago.
Looking around the forum and the wiki, there are some absolutely ridiculous junctions and track layouts, ive never understood how they work (ok, i know how the work, i dont know how to construct them and make sure trains run properly and dont get lost or jammed).

At the moment i only have 1 train on one track, and yes i know some people will be gasping and thinking how bad that is, but i can get a decent profitable network of trains up and running quite well.

Ive been experimenting and trying to start off simple with 2 trains on one track, using lay-bys for the trains to wait in and the next train to pass, which seem to work to start off but it all ends up going pear shaped! Would anyone be kind enough to give me some pointers, where to start, and exactly how the signals work so i can try and understand the logic of what the trains do.

Lets start off by having for example, a factory, and a farm, and i want to have 2 trains between them taking grain and livestock. Whats the best and most efficient way to do it (without getting overly complex too early on!)

Hopefully this can be a good thread for me to learn and ask questions about basic signalling, and if i can learn that then get more complex and build some nice networks, and be a reference for other people in my situation!

Thanks in advance

[planetmaker]

http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Signals
and
http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Guides:Presignals
Other wiki pages may help, too.

[Felix Atagong]

I understand your problem. Honestly, I do. Although I play TT(D) for more than a decade now I seldom finetune the signals.

If one track splits into two I put a (normal) signal on both of the doubled tracks, as close as possible at the junction. It works. (see undeneed S stands for signal)

Code: Select all

     =S========S=
=====            =====          
     =S========S=

This works fine if you have two trains on one line. If you have more trains on the single line you can add signs at the 'end' of the single track as well - the problem is that your trains will run in circles if a track is occupied - so your loops should be big enough to have a complete train, but not too big otherwise your trains will loose a lot of time.

Code: Select all

      =S========S=
====S=            =S====          
      =S========S=

I've never used the one direction only signals and I'ver never understood the concept of pre-signaling. Call me stupid, huh.

[duffman69]

http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Signals
and
http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Guides:Presignals
Other wiki pages may help, too.

will have a read of the openttdcoop page, not seen that one. i have read the wiki here but am still confused, some of the complex junctions are incredible i have no idea how people make those things!

[Mchl]

Best way to learn, is to try.
Cheat to get enough money not to be afraid of bankruptcy, and experiment at will

[nezzybaby]

I remember when i first started playing again i had the same problem. The secret is to not try to make trains pass each other in laybys, that is far too tricky to start with. Instead build a loop of track with a station at each end. Use one way signals to direct the trains around the loop and things will work very easily. To get one way signals you click on a signal twice or three times depending on the direction you want it pointing.

Here is a basic example, at the other end there is exactly the same station but i wanted to keep the images small:

basic 1way.PNG (44.39 KiB) Viewed 5169 times

By building loops or 2 lane routes, the complication dissapears.

Here is another basic example, this time with a terminus station, trains can only enter from one lane and exit from the other:

1 way terminus.PNG (16.89 KiB) Viewed 5165 times

I hope this helps you understands the basics of network building. It is rarely worth trying to build a single bidirectional track, the difficulty in making it work is far too high for a beginner.

[VoxDissident]

Bi-directional railways are much more feasible using YAPP (which is a different signal/pathfinding algorithm). But you'll probably want to refresh your memory on the original signals before you switch over to YAPP.

Remember that it is usually best to use one-way signals spaced every 5-10 tiles (adding more signals later if you want). This way your railways should be two lanes, with one lane carrying in each direction. When starting off, it's not a bad idea to have a single rail servicing both directions with passthroughs set-up the way Felix mentioned. However, as you add more trains (3, 4, 5, etc) along your railway, you'll want to turn your railway into a two lane.

When taking grain/livestock from a farm using just two trains, it's usually best to have both trains carry livestock and grain cars so that you can always have a train loading grain and livestock at your loading station while the other train travels to and from the factory station. This way the serviced farm has a higher probability of increasing input so that you'll be able to generate additional revenue from that station in the distant future.

The basic, pre-signalled terminus station isn't a bad way to start your routes either, as this is probably the most compact station design. While it has limited throughput and will have to be expanded later, the terminus station is probably the easiest station to construct for a two-way network.

While you look at signals and think about expanding, you may also want to check out http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Junctions for ideas about how to expand your rail networks.

[duffman69]

Thanks for the replies guys, VoxDissident and nezzybaby especially!

Ive got a nice sandbox kinda game going, loads of money from playing on a flat land so its easy to experiment. I started off with a Coal Mine --> Power Station, using two trains on a loop, with one way signals, and then using entry and exit signals at the station entrances, which i think works well. Screens:





The only problem I have at the moment is that when a train is leaving the station, the entry signals turn to red, even though there are two platforms, so one train should be able to enter concurrently as one is leaving. How can I achieve this?

Then secondly I made a bigger link, connecting two towns, with a 3 platform station at each, and 5 trains running round the loop, this seems to work just as well as the first one, but again with the same problem as before, not being able to enter as one is leaving. Screen of the problem:



As you can see, the train at the entrance to the 3 platform monorail station is having to wait as the exit track is being used.

[Rainer]

Hi,

some notes:
1) take the short way with full load, that will increase your profit.
2) avoid narrow curves that slow down trains
3) look for the difference of entry signals (one ctrl-click) and exit signals (two ctrl-clicks).

I'm not at home at the moment so I cannot send you screenshots, but the order is

Entry signal < multiple Exit signals = station = multiple normal signals (no ctrl-clicks) > normal signal

cu
Rainer

[duffman69]

Hi,

Entry signal < multiple Exit signals = station = multiple normal signals (no ctrl-clicks) > normal signal

You have exit signals *before* coming into the station? :S

[Bartjeh]

Hi,

Entry signal < multiple Exit signals = station = multiple normal signals (no ctrl-clicks) > normal signal

You have exit signals *before* coming into the station? :S

Yep, what Rainer said is right. The naming is quite confusing tho. It took me quite a while to explain it to my dad who used to play TTD a lot.

[Rainer]

Hi duffman69,

as Bartjeh wrote, the "entry" and "exit" applies to the junction and not to the station.

cu
Rainer

[duffman69]

Hi duffman69,

as Bartjeh wrote, the "entry" and "exit" applies to the junction and not to the station.

cu
Rainer

ok lol, yeh it is quite confusing! Will have another play around, like i said the way i have it works quite well, but just that little prob, will try and fix it using how you explained it!

[Dave]

I hope this helps you understands the basics of network building. It is rarely worth trying to build a single bidirectional track, the difficulty in making it work is far too high for a beginner.

Unless it's point-to-point with single train operation.

The balloon loop you show is a nice concept but wastes far too much space and is pretty unrealistic (I can think of only one place in Britain where a passenger station is serviced by a balloon loop - the miniature Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch railway; and only the few power station yards on the network)

The best way forward is to double everything, or have passing loops at stations by having single line and two platforms (for passengers only, obv), that way if the train is forced to stop, it won't be sat around idly.

[nezzybaby]

Dave: The reason i illustrated it like that was to help him understand the concept of two way lanes, over time he will learn to compress them.

duffman: Here is a simple station with presignals,

presignal station.PNG (87.29 KiB) Viewed 4802 times

And here is a simple terminus.

simple presignal termius.PNG (45.47 KiB) Viewed 4806 times

Pay close attention to which kind of signal is where. You have to have presignals for the terminus station not to jam, yet the other station will function to an extent without presignals. The pre signal basically tells the train to wait at the entry signal until at least 1 exit signal is green.


Oh and the next post is guaranteed to be someone telling me to use less sharp corners to keep trains moving fast. I'm sure you can work out how to achieve this from that design, and you will find it makes very little difference on a small network.

[Dave]

Oh and the next post is guaranteed to be someone telling me to use less sharp corners to keep trains moving fast. I'm sure you can work out how to achieve this from that design, and you will find it makes very little difference on a small network.

I'm all for sharp corners - trains aren't always able to go at 200mph because of limitations of the track so to have penalties for this in OTTD is good - efficiency shouldn't come into it.

[VoxDissident]

Lol. I can't stand having sharp corners unless tight space (or horrendously mountainous terrain) makes it an absolute necessity. Generally I use trains of length 10-14, so I try to make all my turns at least 7 train lengths long at each angle, but this is often times an impracticality even with easier terrain and plenty of space.

[tb2571989]

I always have a minimum of 3 corner pieces before straightening out.

[nezzybaby]

Now you have a basic knowledge of two way routes, it's time to start building networks. The way i always begin is to find a power station and connect as many coal mines as possible to it. This is the basic way to do this, obviously in reality the coal mines will be a lot further away than in this illustration, but this was easier to show. The more track you build the more expensive it is, so merging tracks like this will help you save money and connect more.

In this illustration there are two trains going to each coal mine, it's not worth making a single train to service both of them. On this junction i hope it is fairly clear that no trains can go directly from one coal mine to the other. If you look at junctions on the wiki, or elsewhere on this forum you will normally see all routes connected. On a larger network, or specifically a passenger network, it will be necessary to make proper junctions, but to begin with this should be very useful.

[duffman69]

Now you have a basic knowledge of two way routes, it's time to start building networks. The way i always begin is to find a power station and connect as many coal mines as possible to it. This is the basic way to do this, obviously in reality the coal mines will be a lot further away than in this illustration, but this was easier to show. The more track you build the more expensive it is, so merging tracks like this will help you save money and connect more.

In this illustration there are two trains going to each coal mine, it's not worth making a single train to service both of them. On this junction i hope it is fairly clear that no trains can go directly from one coal mine to the other. If you look at junctions on the wiki, or elsewhere on this forum you will normally see all routes connected. On a larger network, or specifically a passenger network, it will be necessary to make proper junctions, but to begin with this should be very useful.

That is a helpful screenshot, thanks! It was my next question really, gonna try and make a more complex network now connection multiple resources to one industry, will see how i get on!