DR Stuff (WIP)

[TehCowSezMoo]

All DRG/DR Engines and coaches I've drawn (partially) so far

BR 78 ( T 18 )





V3201





BR V 200



BR V 180 (I'm not so sure if it does look ANYTHING like it's reallife counterpart)



BR E 11



DR bilevel coach trailer



BR 23.10



BR 52(.80)



VT 18.16



BR E 04



V 36 (not so sure if this actually makes much sense to add... just like the look of the engine)



VT 2.09



REKO Wagen (4 axles) (regular + MITROPA)





Bmh coaches (regular and city express livery)

[Ben_K]

Its a nice start

Id recommend trying the tutorial stickies and maybe write to Michael and ask what size guides he uses.

[Snail]

Not so bad...

The steamer looks a bit 2D-ish, especially in the horizontal view. I'd try to give it a bit more deepness if I were you.
I like the way you are starting to use the shading, with many levels of the same color. Remember, though, that light comes from the right. I do see some effort in this sense in most of your vehicles, but you might want to stress that even a bit more.

I would recommend you to have a thorough look at Purno's tutorial, especially for your diesel engine (it's a bit confused in the diagonal view); maybe you could post a picture of that loco?

And BTW, it happens I actually drew a BR78 time ago... it's "disguised" as the 232TC of the French Set. If you think it'd help you, I can post it here!

Keep up the good effort

[Purno]

If these are drawn from scratch, you seriously have pixel talents. Check my tutorials*, as Snail said, for some "restrictions" on TT sprites, and you should be able to draw quite fine sprites



*Link in Linkage / in sig.

[michael blunck]

[...] I started drawing German engines and cars not covered by the DB set

Well, a good part of these are quite exotic vehicles.

Could anyone please tell me if there's something totally wrong (in size) and most of all what I'm supposed to do once i completed the graphics.

Take a look at the attached vehicle size table.

Now for the graphics:

- BR 78 (T 18 ) in their respective liveries. This engine is pretty much like the P 8 (BR 38 ) except that it's a tank engine and is the only steam loco (which I know of) that was used for push/pull services.

Well, I had the T18 in DBXL v0.83 (which was never released, though). Meanwhile, for v0.9 being developed, it´s out again, simply because P8 (BR38) and T18 (BR78) have identical stats which makes no sense for TTD. Push/pull service by the T18 had been only established during the early DB era, which isn´t too promising for the DB Set either, IMO.

E 19 is a beefed up E 18 designed in 1938. It was capable of running at an impressive speed of 225 km/h, however due to the low quality of the brakes this was capped at 180 km/h (which is still faster than any other engine of that time). Red DRG livery (DB used blue) with over-sized Hoheitsadlers at the sides and front.

The introduction of the most impressive new engine type of the DRG had a very bad timing due to the second world war.

With respect to the braking system, test runs indeed reveiled that braking down from 180 km/h didn´t guarantee the stipulated braking distance of 900 m. However, improvements of the electrical braking system solved that problem before regular service was started.

Anyway, due to bad track condition and other adverse effects of the war, none of those four engines (E19 01, E19 02, E19 11 and E19 12) ever travelled higher speeds than 120 km/h in regular service (mainly München - Nürnberg - Saalfeld).

After the war, these engines were permitted 140 km/h by the DB.

As to the livery: E 19 01 stayed in wine red until 1945 when it got the usual green livery, likewise E 19 02 in 1947. In 1958, E 19 01 got the blue livery for engines > 120 km/h, but E 19 02 only did in 1975. Since 1968, both engines were relabeled to BR 119. 119 001 was set aside in 1977 after a fire, 119 002 followed in 1978. 119 001 is kept as a museum locomotive in the DTM Berlin and E19 12 in the Verkehrsmuseum Nürnberg

V3201 was an experimental diesel-pneumatic engine desinged in 1928. However i didn't find any data except that it had a 1200 hp diesel engine.

This engine (correctly labeled "V 120 001") had been developed in connection with an order of the Soviet Union for the german locomotive industry, placed by the DRG on behalf of the Russians in 1924. A pre-order included also a diesel-electric (1'Eo1') and a diesel-mechanical (2'E1') locomotive for testing purposes. Because diesel pneumatics are very similar to steam engines, this one got a 2'C2' axle scheme along the lines of the T18 (later BR78) which had proven worthwhile for the requirements of the russian railway: passenger service on main and second branch lines, train loads of 230 tons on 25 ‰ grades, max tractive effort 117 kN.

Construction by Maschinenfabrik Esslingen and MAN lasted unusally long until 1927 and the engine was delivered for even more testing only in 1929 until it eventually came into service for a couple of years at Stuttgart. Because of constant problems it was set aside early and scrapped already in 1936.

Some stats:

length: 16330 mm
driving wheel diameter: 1600 mm
service weight: 124.6 tons
adhesive weight: 54.6 tons
axle load: 18 tons
max tractive effort: 108 kN
max speed: 80 km/h
diesel engine: Lo 6 Vu 45/42
power: 883 kW
rpm: 400

[...] a S 3/6 in it's original blue livery as used by the K.Bay.Sts.B. This was also the livery it had when the Rheingold appeared for the first time iirc. The other one is a redrawn Rheingold wagon, as the version covered by DBSet is slightly incorrect.

Well, no.

Bavarian steam engines never had a blue livery in service. These were special exhibition liveries for the world exhibitions in 1910 (Bruxelles) and 1924 (Sellin). OTOH, the model railway company Märklin sponsored a blue livery for one of the surviving S 3/6s, but that´s more or less a special form of advertisement [*].

Some bavarian steam engines had an ochre livery for presentation and/or delivery (e.g. the Gt 2x4/4) and very few were given a blue livery for the exhibitions in 1920 and 1924. The regular livery of the K.Bay.Sts.B was a green one with black details. The BR18 from the DB Set is a late S 3/6 from the "k" and/or "l" series built by order of the DRG in 1926/27. All DRG 18s (S 3/6) since 1922 were painted in the usual black, even those engines for the Rheingold Express. OTOH, even in 1925 there were still some ex-bavarian engines in green livery, but o/c not the DRG-built ex-S 3/6s (BR 18.4-5)

[*] "The livery itself is a modern design and has no historic relevance." See http://www.bayerisches-eisenbahnmuseum. ... e/18_t.htm

And what do you think is wrong with the "Rheingold" coaches?

regards
Michael

[Dave]

Ah so you and Ron converse about these matters, Michael! Great to see the BR Set will be conforming to a similar sprite standard!

[michael blunck]

Ah so you and Ron converse about these matters, Michael! Great to see the BR Set will be conforming to a similar sprite standard!

Pardon?

I haven´t been in contact with Ron since a year or so and o/c I´ve nothing to do with any of these BR or UK sets.

regards
Michael

[Dave]

There is a very similar sprite standard with the BR Set... I guess you and Ron must have created it a long, LONG time ago... Or something.

Oh well.

Back to DB thingies.

[TehCowSezMoo]

TY for supplying all this information. I guess I should have read all those letter thingies below the picture of that blue S 3/6

The V3201 was indeed labeled V3201 when it was ordered but was re-labeled V 120 001 in 1930. (The V 140 001 which is currently included was labeled V 16 101 when it entered service.)
Also I'd like to point out that the 137-series were never labeled SVT 137. None of the DRG diesel train sets had a lettering but a simple 6-digit number.

Now for the exots. Of course it is correct that none of those engines was built in large quantities. However the DB set already contains numerous such engines (BR 05, ET 11, ICE TD, BR 181, V 140, BR E 16...) so basically that doesn't quite sound like much of a reason to me But after all it is your decision and I won't call you names for that ^-^
(Also there are already engines which are indistinguishable by ingame means, such as the BR 103 / BR 120, BR 111 / BR 110)

And what do you think is wrong with the "Rheingold" coaches?

Unless this is highly ironical:

1. The purple is WAY to bright, it was significantly deeper
2. The gap between the wheelpairs on each bogie is much wider than on most other coaches (3.60m vs. eg 2.50m on UIC-X coaches)
3. In-game the coaches are "stuck" to each other, however there should be a visible gap between them
4. As the Rheingold coaches were longer than the average passenger car while using slightly modified standard lugagge cars, these should actually appear shorter (23.50m vs. 19.68m)

Also why do the cars carry MORE passengers than the regular long distance cars, since they actually carried LESS. A 1st class coach had a total of 28 (!) seats, whereas a 2nd class coach had 43. (Similar capacity inconsitencies exist for the n-Wagen which actually carr(y)ied 96 passengers)

So much for Rheingold

I of course still have a few more question on the DB set but I will post them in the correct topic.

Regards

[Dave]

Just as pre-cursor to Michael's response, you'll find that a lot of sets have altered capacities for gameplay reasons.

I'm not sure if Michael also does this, but if the coaches/wagons had their normal capacities the game would be hideously unbalanced.

[Snail]

Also why do the cars carry MORE passengers than the regular long distance cars, since they actually carried LESS. A 1st class coach had a total of 28 (!) seats, whereas a 2nd class coach had 43. (Similar capacity inconsitencies exist for the n-Wagen which actually carr(y)ied 96 passengers)

I think this is intentional. Rheingold service did carry less passengers, but it was more expensive (i.e. profitable). And the only way we have to make trains more profitable in the TTD world is to increase their capacity.

Of course, an idea might be to make them refittable to tourists instead...

[TehCowSezMoo]

I of course thought of balancing (it's not like I'm a total retard ) but on the other hand using a realistic set in a somewhat realistic way will usually let you ignore such things ( such as in current DB set the BR 120 is just a bad version of the BR 103 [more expensive, less reliable] yet I use it because the BR 103 was removed from active service )

Also if it is only for balancing, I'd prefer different cargoes ( which ECS will supply iirc) like "fat, decadent, capitalist passengers" and "poor, working class, socialist passengers"

edit: I updated some of the sprites

[Dave]

but on the other hand using a realistic set in a somewhat realistic way will usually let you ignore such things ( such as in current DB set the BR 120 is just a bad version of the BR 103 [more expensive, less reliable] yet I use it because the BR 103 was removed from active service )

I disagree - just because the whole set is balanced, it doesn't mean the game is balanced to the set.

If you had 10 x 96 passenger carriages you'd be conveying a thousand passengers every trip - this isn't sustainable in TTD - especially in terms of early on in the game. 10 x 40 is far more realistic, even if it isn't correct.

EDIT: With the above statement I should probably say "10 x 40 is far more sustainable in gameplay, even if it isn't realistic".

it's not like I'm a total retard

Maybe it's just me but I found this attitude quite patronising - we weren't suggesting you were, just giving you reasons behind decisions.

Still - over to Michael for the real reasons.

[michael blunck]

The V3201 was indeed labeled V3201 when it was ordered but was re-labeled V 120 001 in 1930

It was labeled "V 120 001" when entereing DRG service.

Also I'd like to point out that the 137-series were never labeled SVT 137. None of the DRG diesel train sets had a lettering but a simple 6-digit number.

Well, "SVT xxx" is the class (number) ("Bauart"), not the "service number".

In 1932/33, a new numbering scheme had been introduced by the DRG as follows:

VT 133 000 - 133 999: two-axle rail cars with gasoline engine
VT 134 000 - 134 999: four-axle rail cars with gasoline engine
VT 135 000 - 136 999: two-axle rail cars with diesel engine
VT 137 000 - 138 999: four-axle rail cars with diesel engine
VB 140 000 - 143 999: two-axle additional coaches ("Beiwagen")
VS 144 000 - 144 999: two-axle driving trailers ("Steuerwagen")
VS 145 000 - 146 999: four-axle driving trailers
VB 147 000 - 149 999: four-axle additional coaches

Considering the "express rail cars" ("Schnelltriebwagen"), these were o/c four-axle railcars, hence

- SVT 877 [*], the "Flying Hamburger", later DB VT04.0 ([*] this was the old labeling before the new scheme: 851 - 899 were four-axle diesel rail cars as well)
- SVT 137 class "Hamburg", later DB VT04.1 and DR 183
- SVT 137 class "Leipzig", later DR 183
- SVT 137 class "Köln", later DB VT06.1 and VT06.5
- SVT 137 class "Berlin"

Although these express rail cars were of different technology (diesel-electric, diesel-hydraulic, Jacob´s bogies, normal bogies, ...) they were all named "SVTs" and that´s the class name I am using in the DB Set.

Now for the exots. Of course it is correct that none of those engines was built in large quantities. However the DB set already contains numerous such engines (BR 05, ET 11, ICE TD, BR 181, V 140, BR E 16...) so basically that doesn't quite sound like much of a reason to me

Yes. That´s correct, the DB set contains a couple of engines which were built in small or even in very small quantity. However, there´s a reason for each of them being in the set.

OTOH, the V3201 is a real exotic. The V140 has also been unique, but at least it has been in regular service and it´s still maintained.

Also there are already engines which are indistinguishable by ingame means, such as the BR 103 / BR 120, BR 111 / BR 110)

Well, no. They´re quite distinguishable. Every engine has a special characteristic, e.g. the 103 can be used only for passenger trains but the 120 may be used for freight as well, both engines act different according to "livery override" and they do have different cost and price.

Same is true for the 110 vs. 111: different livery overrides, only 111 can be used for S-Bahn service, etc.

[Rheingold coaches]

The purple is WAY to bright, it was significantly deeper

Yes. But the TTD colour map is restricted and I didn´t find a better colour, especially because I needed a different one for the Rheingold II coaches (DB era)

2. The gap between the wheelpairs on each bogie is much wider than on most other coaches (3.60m vs. eg 2.50m on UIC-X coaches)

Mmh. Are you sure that this would be noticeable in game?

3. In-game the coaches are "stuck" to each other, however there should be a visible gap between them.

I´m not quite sure what you mean. Even in slant (/ \) views, there should be a visible gap between coaches. (Which should be the case with all my coaches, in comparison to other sets where a train looks often like a "tube" )

4. As the Rheingold coaches were longer than the average passenger car while using slightly modified standard lugagge cars, these should actually appear shorter (23.50m vs. 19.68m)

This has been changed in DBXL v0.9. I´ve introduced four different coach lengths.

Also why do the cars carry MORE passengers than the regular long distance cars, since they actually carried LESS.

As has been pointed out by others, this is by concept: before the introduction of new cargoes ("tourists"), there was no means to make a long-distance coach more profitable than a local coach. In general, the DB Set uses

- long-distance: increased number of passengers, increased loading time,
- local: smaller number of passengers, normal loading time,
- S-Bahn: smaller number of passengers, instant loading,

This results in long-distance coaches being highly profitable on long distances, and local and S-Bahn coaches highly profitable on short distances. This works very well and has been adopted by other sets, BTW.

I of course still have a few more question on the DB set

You´re welcome. I´d be happy to shed some light on every problem you have and I´m ready to discuss every proposal.

regards
Michael

[TehCowSezMoo]

I'll repeat what I said earlier: the SVT/VT prefices were never used by the DRG. The Baureihe was a simple 3-digit number and in some cases, as for the 137-series, when even those with the same Baureihe were actually different, the engines basically could just be distinguished when looking at all 6 digits. (Maybe our sources differ on this. I see SVT/VT most of the time as well, however no train set had it written on it. That's somewhat confusing. Well who cares now anyway as long as everyone knows what's referred to.)


For the indistinguishable engines: The BR 78 / BR 38 were used for different purposes as well (like the BR 78 was mostly used for regional trains, whereas the BR 38 was used for pretty much everything) However there's no difference in performance, which is largely true for BR 111/110 etc. So my point was not that there wouldn't be any difference between those engines, but that the BR 78/38 could easily exist at the same time like the others already do. I hope you agree with me

Well, poor Rheingold seems to get owned by TTD's old engine But for the gap: it was indeed way bigger than with the more modern carriages (most pre-war cars were like this) I guess this'd make a gap of about 2-3 pxls, which isn't much more than 1 ^-^ I used that sprite draw thing from the forums, I don't know if that purple won't appear like that in-game but it's fairly close to the real one.

Well I guess I'll post my questions here anyway:

1. Why is the BR 45 in the set?
Of course it WAS the most powerful steam engine of the DB, however if taking mere numbers, it was outmatched maaaany times by the BR 44 or even by the BR 42. If I mentioned the (only) reason in the first line, please ignore this question ^-^

2. Why is the BR 120 more expensive yet worse than the BR 103?
When taking total costs (purchase/age+annual) the BR 120 costs about 10% more (with everything set ot highest). It's only advantage is it's ability to pull fast goods trains, but is inferior when it comes to passenger trains (which it was and is used for most of the time, goods trains were very rare)

3. Why isn't the BR 145 in the set?
After all it is a fairly important engine for Railion (152 would be great as well)

I guess that's everything I remember for now. However: could you point out again why there won't be no E19? Most of the reasons you mentioned for your exots apply to it. Aaaand it's sooooo pretty ^-^

[DonRazzi]

Well, the 120 has been a very popular engine in Germany despite of it's flwas. It's one of the milestones in German railway engeneering as it is the first model which uses a three phase A.C. motor. Without this engine in the set I think something would be missing - as I miss the E 18. I think having the E 19 on board would be not that nice as you'd get into the E 03 / 120 trouble with E 10 / E 19 thirty years earlier. And I'd also love if the BR 45 would be replaced by BR 42, 43 or 44, as those have been the last steamers DB used...

[DonRazzi]

BTW: What do you think about a DR (east) set?

[Uwe]

I guess Michael chose the BR45 because of its slightly higher top speed compared to the 44, so it's basically for gameplay reasons. I'd personally prefer the BR50/52, 44 and 41 over the 45, but Michael has pointed out long ago that it's not possible to simulate their advantages in TTDX. Concerning the BR120, I'd say Michael simulates the fact that the newly developed engine was quite problematical reliability wise, therefore the higher maintenance costs. But I'll leave it to Michael to state his reasons, I'm sure he thought about that quite well.

A modern electric for freight trains would be interesting indeed, I suggested that months ago, let's see what Michael comes up with

A DR (east) set would be a cool thing to have, yet how should that make sense in the context of the game? What about the time from 1921-1950 and from 1990 onwards? Also, the DBSetXL already includes some engines from East Germany. However, if it'd be possible to have such a set work in conjunction with the DBSetXL I'd be glad to play with that.

[DonRazzi]

I thought about it like an "overwrite add-on". Pre-War and post-iron-curtain engines stay the same, but the enines of the capitalistic enemy will be replaced by engines from the VEB and our friends from the sovjet union! Workers of all nations unite!

[michael blunck]

Ah, I´ve almost overseen the activity going on here. Now, this will be lengthy reply.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: the SVT/VT prefices were never used by the DRG. The Baureihe was a simple 3-digit number and in some cases, as for the 137-series, when even those with the same Baureihe were actually different, the engines basically could just be distinguished when looking at all 6 digits. (Maybe of course our sources differ on this.)

That´s an old dispute.

If you want to say that the DRG didn´t paint those labels on their combustion rail cars, you may have a point there. Undisputedly, for electric railcars this was common practice though, even before 1940, but for combustion rail cars it´s not clear if those rare photos showing a "prefixed label" ("VT xxx") had been taken prior to 1940 (there are some very few in Obermayer: Triebwagen).

Anyhow, except from painting or non-painting "prefixes" on their rail cars, those have been indeed used internally. Generally, those prefixes had been carried over from the Prussian State Railways where they have been introduced already since 1910 (AT, DT, VT, ET), right after the foundation of the DRG in 1920.

In addition, those prefixes are generally used in the literature and o/c I don´t see any use in using historic serial numbers for a certain class of rail car in the DB Set. To be even more historically correct, I´d had to label those diesel rail cars in a much more complicated way, so

- instead of

B6vT (serial numbers 137 149 - 137 152)

I´m using SVT 137 "Hamburg"

- instead of

BC8vT (serial numbers 137 153, 137 154, 137 233, 137 234)

I´d use SVT 137 "Leipzig"

- and instead of

BCPW8iütrT-35 (numbers 137 283 - 137 287)

I´m simply using SVT 137 "Ruhr"





IMO, this is more than sufficient, given the fact that even Thomas Noßke on his exemplary web site is using "VT" and "SVT" terms and almost all of the german railway literature makes full use of that "VT" / "SVT" concept.

For the indistinguishable engines: The BR 78 / BR 38 were used for different purposes as well (like the BR 78 was mostly used for regional trains, whereas the BR 38 was used for pretty much everything) However there's no difference in performance, which is largely true for BR 111/110 etc. (Also the BR 111 was not used for S-Bahn only but as well for IC trains at the same time. Currently the BR 111 will stick with the S-Bahn livery if equipped with long-distance coaches) So my point was not that there wouldn't be any difference between those engines, but that the BR 78/38 could easily exist at the same time like the others already do. I hope you agree with me

At least I understand.

However, in the DB set, there´s room for both the 110 and the 111, but there´s hardly room for both the 38 and the 78. Although I was already going to include the 78 in the set, I eventually decided against it (see my last post for the reasons). Such a decision is always some form of "blade-running" and usually requires many months until everything is settled. And o/c, everybody has a different point of view. In general, I try to have the most important vehicles in the set and the whole thing balanced as good as possible. Note, however, that "importance" could be quite different for you and me.

Well I guess I'll post my questions here anyway:

1. Why is the BR 45 in the set?
Of course it WAS the most powerful steam engine of the DB, however if taking mere numbers, it was outmatched maaaany times by the BR 44 or even by the BR 42. If I mentioned the (only) reason in the first line, please ignore this question ^-^

In v0.9 I have it exchanged against the 44. The main reason for the 45 was because the very first version of the DB Set needed a real powerful freight engine, but meanwhile there´s a much broader spectrum of freight engines in the set, so the emphasis could be shifted a little bit more to historic relevance, i.e. in this case, to the BR44.

2. Why is the BR 181 in the set?
This engine is of fairly little use. While for the real DB it was necessary due to it's ability to run on different currents, for in-game purposes it isn't very useful. In most games I build little to none of these (it's slightly faster than the 110 but costs a lot more. If I need a long distance engine I'll just buy a 103. And for goods trains it's way too weak.)

Not necessarily. It depends on type of cargo and use of ttdpatch switches, in particular the "freightttrains" switch. Another reason is that I like the view of this engine, and like the 120 (s.b.) it´s another important milestone in electric locomotive development.

3. Why is the BR 120 more expensive yet worse than the BR 103?
When taking total costs (purchase/age+annual) the BR 120 costs about 10% more (with everything set ot highest). It's only advantage is it's ability to pull fast goods trains, but is inferior when it comes to passenger trains (which it was and is used for most of the time, goods trains were very rare)

According to my knowledge, and at least in the beginning, the 120 was a problematic engine. It really had a bad start from technical reasons, but OTOH, the 103 was a real work horse. And, likewise with the 181, the 120 has historic importance. It´s the first three-phase current engine and gained an important position inside the DB fleet over the years. And in the game, as time go by, you´re forced to switch to the 120 (as in reality) when the 103 is getting old.

4. Why isn't the BR 145 in the set?
After all it is a fairly important engine for Railion

A modern electric for freight trains would be interesting indeed, I suggested that months ago [...]

There will be at least one more modern electric in v0.9. This has been requested many times, hehe. OTOH, the 145 has "only" 4200kW which would appear "weak" against some of its predecessors. The 189 would offer 6400kW, for instance.

5. Why is the ICE TD in the set?
Heck it was a total failure. It left service after 2 years, actually it hardly saw anything you could call "service" None of the other engines included in the set were so embarassing for it's designers.

Well, it´s the only ICE train set for non-electrified track. I know it was a failure in real life, nevertheless, it´s getting a second chance in TTD.

I guess that's everything I remember for now. However: could you point out again why there won't be no E19? Most of the reasons you mentioned for your exots apply to it. Aaaand it's sooooo pretty ^-^

I miss the E 18

V0.9 includes the E18, which should be sufficient.

A DR (east) set would be a cool thing to have, yet how should that make sense in the context of the game?

This could be implemented in the DB Set in such a way that you´d be able to play DB or DR between 1948 - 1990 depending on the setting of a switch. Unfortunately, for our DR enthusiasts, this isn´t of high priority ATM.


Ah, ... we´re done.

regards
Michael