US Set Development Thread

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Oracle
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Post by Oracle »

krtaylor wrote:1. The running costs of the GE44T must be reduced, it is not possible for it to make a profit. Pulling one car, continuous service, reasonable distance, should be profitable, and it's not.
I thought it was already cheap ... but, looking at the figures, maybe it isn't particularly so. Maintenance cost will be reduced.
krtaylor wrote:2. Something very bizarre is happening with the wagon-speed-limits, the tank cars, and the F7. I have trains of tripe F7 lashups pulling old-style tankers refitted to carry rubber. These tankers have a nominal speed limit of 60mph, however, they don't appear to have any speed limit behind the F7, full or empty. When the F7s are replaced by PAs, the proper speed limit appears. The ordinary rubber transporter also has its proper speed limit.
I do know about that one, but it's not easily avoidable due to a certain other feature. I might make some changes to it, though.

Thrakki, nice livery! I don't know about your Metra with only bi-level suggestion though - my inclination is that's it's not really possible but I haven't thought about it much, so I'll try when the time comes around.

Dan is right about the F7s; the Santa Fe and UP liveries are the current ones and Dan's liveries haven't yet been coded.
Oz wrote:What I had tried to post was an update on the MCS. Mostly worked on the platforms, by adding some fencing, and introducing platform termini, with buffers. I extended the parking lot out a bit towards the concourse, and replaced the grass between the platforms and the lot with gravel. Also made the lot and sidewalks in the US roadset style, assuming that this will be the preferred set. After, of course, the RR crossings are redrawn for the US roads.
:shock: Impressive!
A few comments:
The fencing on the platforms looks nice, and I assume that it should go on the edge platforms, which should be easy-ish to code.
Speaking of the buffers on the termini platforms, are those on a different tile to the end of the platforms, as they seem to be? If they are then great, because that's what I need. You will need to give me the track sprites for that tile too unless you draw the gravel to cover the right bits up (but I think the former is easier).
I like the car park and pavements (sorry, have to use the British terminology :P) but is it expandable and contractable for different sized stations? Obviously that's a 9-square long station but you could have longer and (more likely) shorter so there needs to be a possibility for shorter stations, although we could lose the "drop-off point" or whatever it is at the other end first.
Mentioning the drop-off point, it looks very nice! What I suggest (if you don't mind doing it) is drawing quite a few road tiles with different cars on in different positions (yes, I do want the cars and the road on the same sprite here) and then I could have them change as trains come and go. You could even put a bus or two on there but it might get a bit confusing as it's really "fake" road.
I think a few planters on the concrete would be a nice idea, to liven it up a bit, if it's not too much effort for you.

By the way, it's not going to be as modular as you might think - my current plan is for four parts - the station building itself (+ car park + drop off area), through platforms, terminal platforms (N) and terminal platforms (S). That should easily be enough to make it nice and configurable.
Also, the loading state mechanism is fairly complicated but you can do quite a lot, so cars and people are a definite possibility. I feel sorry for you if you're going to draw lots of people though - it was a lot of effort for Michael, or so I gather! Again, if you do draw people, I want sprites with people on the platform to make the coding easier.


Regarding the loco availability, if the locos cease to become available whilst you own one of them with enginespersist on then that's a bug in TTDPatch. They're not supposed to because that's the whole point of enginespersist. I know Josef was originally having some problems with this "early retirement" and enginespersist but I thought he'd fixed them.
It's unfortunately not very easy to enable/disable with a parameter because it relies on a property being set or not being set (as opposed to being set to zero). I could try but it would be a lot of effort better spent on station work. If you want me to try making a quick file setting all the early retirement properties to zero then I will, just for an experiment (effects not immediately obvious but the engines will be available for longer, becoming very unreliable before their lifetimes are over).
If you're just complaining that the availability periods are too short, then the minimum is 7 years, with the next 9 (I think) so it's not no time at all, but, again, if you want me to make a possible but unguaranteed solution then I will.
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Post by HaroldV »

Oracle wrote:Regarding the loco availability, if the locos cease to become available whilst you own one of them with enginespersist on then that's a bug in TTDPatch ... It's unfortunately not very easy to enable/disable with a parameter ... I could try but it would be a lot of effort better spent on station work. If you want me to try making a quick file setting all the early retirement properties to zero then I will, just for an experiment (effects not immediately obvious but the engines will be available for longer, becoming very unreliable before their lifetimes are over).
If you're just complaining that the availability periods are too short, then the minimum is 7 years, with the next 9 (I think) so it's not no time at all, but, again, if you want me to make a possible but unguaranteed solution then I will.
Two things:

1. On a fundamental level, I don't believe it is a good situation that a set - even inadvertantly - disables or interferes with normal Patch functionality. If a player choses to have persistent engines on, then it should work; the USSet readme even implies that the player does has this choice over whether to use persistent engines or not, which is currently incorrect.

2. I'm not a technically astute person, so this is probably a stupid question: why is the early retirement thingameejig such a problem for this set, when the retirement dates in some other sets I tried work fine with persistent engines? Your outline of a possible quick-fix flew well over my head, yet might it not be better to address whatever core issues the set has in this regard? That is: I don't understand what extra functionality the USSet's version of early retirement dates brings to the table, but whatever that functionality is, is it of such value that replacing it (in the interim) with a more basic system that works properly (until the kinks in the current method are all worked out) not a wiser approach than attempting an experimental idea which you don't sound too keen on anyway? (Because the station project *is* much sexier, I admit ;) )

Cheers,
HaroldV
(Whose rail network construction isn't nearly as tortuous as his sentence construction.)
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Post by krtaylor »

The reason the US set works differently with persistent-engines, AFAIK, is because it's the only set using a new early-retirement feature, that at the time we released the set was not-quite-ready for prime time. There was a known bug: it screwed up persistent-engines. I think this has been fixed but may need some sort of change in the US set's coding, but I'm not totally sure. The issue was discussed some while back. Oracle? Do you know what's up? We ought to fix it so persistent-engines does work.
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Post by Thrakki »

C&NW F-7 Livery done. I would guess it (the livery) should be available about as early as the F-7 is--so sometime in the mid 40s.
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C&NW F-7 Final.png
C&NW F-7 Final.png (1.36 KiB) Viewed 1630 times
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Post by Villem »

found by google
according to those pictures, C&NW F7 doesn't have red on its nose, or the sides.
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Post by Thrakki »

Hmm, that's odd. Maybe the picture I was using had an incorrect exposure or something. The "red" on the sides, though, is actually the C&NW logo, which is is technically a mixture of red, black, and white (but since the white letters are too small, I represent it using a black and red checkerboard square). You will note that some of those pics have the C&NW logo on the side, while others don't. I chose to draw one that did.

I'll get rid of the red in the nose soon. For now I need to go to work, so no time right now.
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Post by Thrakki »

Ok, I removed most of the offending red from the nose. You'll still notice a little bit there, but again, it's just a representation of the C&NW logo. . .
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C&NW F-7 Final.png
C&NW F-7 Final.png (1.35 KiB) Viewed 1556 times
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Post by Villem »

honestly the logo is to small to be represented in TTD scale, just a few red pixels ain't going to tell people "oh thats the C&NW logo".
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Post by cornelius »

An incredibly quick rearrangement of the Mission-style station to have the building trackside like the real thing in Los Angeles. This station actually does have gardens on the site so there would be no shortage of things to fill up the empty tracks with. I'll be able to make the building longer too - probably 4 squares long would be the minimum.

Thoughts?
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mission-style-trackside.png
mission-style-trackside.png (6.87 KiB) Viewed 1486 times
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Cornelius Foundry ~ Bespoke Isometric Narrow Gauge Engineering ~ Est. 1921
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Post by Thrakki »

That may be true, but for people who know what C&NW equipment looks like, they should be able to assume those "red pixels" are a representation of the logo--just as how someone might assume the white blob on a Metra train is representing the word "Metra", or heck, the "--- - -- ---" pixel scheme on my other C&NW equip is actually a representation of the words Chicago and North Western.

So let's kill two birds with one stone. I'll post another pic as an example of what I am talking about in regards to "too small" logos. At the same time, you're in luck, because it's an alternate C&NW livery I found--and it doesn't have any red blotches on its side (only one small one on its nose). If the first livery isn't to your liking, perhaps this one will please you more.

(note this only includes a single view as of yet, since it is still in-progress)
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Alternate C&NW Livery.png
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B Bug?

Post by wallyweb »

I don't know whether this has already been identified.
I would be surprised if it hasn't but just in case, and at considerable risk of a severe flaming, here goes:

Engine: F7
Consist: 8 reefers and a caboose
Patch: 53 and Csaboka's new 53vcs too.
Problem:
With A, ABB or ABBA there is no problem.
With AB, when train is in a depot or in a tunnel, all is normal.
However, when the AB is pulling reefers on an open track, the graphics change.
The cargo is not affected and remains as goods.
I tried this with a livestock/boxcar consist and all was normal.
The problem seems specific to an F7 AB configuration hauling reefers.
Of interest, even though the reefer consist is different for each train, the substituted graphics are identical.

If this is a known issue, is there a work around?
Thought I'd ask before submitting my newgrfw.cfg.

png below:
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F7 composite image
F7 composite image
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Post by Sanchimaru »

Wallyweb, isn't that the circus livery? I saw some pictures at the screenshots thread quite a while ago.

Cornelius, the station is looking good, but looks too big in scale. You'll have to make it much smaller (you lose a lot of detail...)
When drawing buildings in TTD scale, recall that 1 floor is 6 pixels. Other than that, the shading and the details you added are quite fine, try to do a smaller version!
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Post by cornelius »

Sanchimaru wrote:Cornelius, the station is looking good, but looks too big in scale. You'll have to make it much smaller (you lose a lot of detail...)
When drawing buildings in TTD scale, recall that 1 floor is 6 pixels. Other than that, the shading and the details you added are quite fine, try to do a smaller version!
It's a big building! Those windows are four stories high at least...

http://tomfassett.railspot.com/photos/s ... _05_85.JPG
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Post by Villem »

Thrakki wrote:That may be true, but for people who know what C&NW equipment looks like, they should be able to assume those "red pixels" are a representation of the logo--just as how someone might assume the white blob on a Metra train is representing the word "Metra", or heck, the "--- - -- ---" pixel scheme on my other C&NW equip is actually a representation of the words Chicago and North Western.

So let's kill two birds with one stone. I'll post another pic as an example of what I am talking about in regards to "too small" logos. At the same time, you're in luck, because it's an alternate C&NW livery I found--and it doesn't have any red blotches on its side (only one small one on its nose). If the first livery isn't to your liking, perhaps this one will please you more.

(note this only includes a single view as of yet, since it is still in-progress)
i liked the previus livery, but i didn't like the red in it.
& i didn't find any photo that displays your alternate scheme in a real life loco.
and you don't need to draw everything as i wish it would be, the logo on the side can stay but imo you can't display it to well in TTD scale. Im just offering you feedback on what i experience your Loco looks compared to the real life one.
Instead of having the red on the nose, you could put the second headlight in its place.

By the way, i found pictures of a Metra F7(its the blue one)
Last edited by Villem on 02 Jul 2005 14:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by wallyweb »

Sanchimaru wrote:Wallyweb, isn't that the circus livery? I saw some pictures at the screenshots thread quite a while ago.
Circus livery huh? Bug or Easter Egg? 8)
Found it here in US Set available [v0.85 (trains and stations)] :D
That means animal crackers in the food from the food plant until I upgrade the engines in about 15years. :lol:
Last edited by wallyweb on 02 Jul 2005 15:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Thrakki »

Akalamanaia, here's the photos of the alternate livery...

http://www.cnwhs.org/memberphotos/displ ... m=7&pos=91
http://www.cnwhs.org/memberphotos/displ ... t=-4&pos=6
http://www.cnwhs.org/memberphotos/displ ... t=-4&pos=7

Those are the only 3 photos I know of that show that livery. I am guessing it was somewhat rare?
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Post by Oz »

Cornelius: Dude! I am lovin' the LA station. Platforms- awsome! Clock-tower- awsome! Roof and roofline- awsome! I am truly envious, because this is a beautiful station. That being said, a few suggestions:

1) Windows and entranceway: Both should be a little more narrow. If you'll look at the pic below, there's three windows, not two. Also, add some sashes to the windows. They look like a solid sheet of glass at this point.
The red and pink above the entrance is actually adobe in color, just like the window frames. Also, take note of the little circular window above the entrance.

2) Move the whole station forward, and extend the concourse back towards the platforms. That way, you can draw the smaller breezeway from behind and to the left of the tower, and add the courtyard between it and the platforms. I think that the station should be four tiles in length. That'll give you plenty of room for the breezeway and courtyard.

I think you have the beginnings of a great station. Now, it's just tweaking things a bit, and you'll be in bidness!

Cheers!
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Front Facade.png
Front Facade.png (633.06 KiB) Viewed 1392 times
Courtyard.png
Courtyard.png (784.54 KiB) Viewed 1392 times
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Post by Oz »

Sorry for the double-post, everyone. My last post got a little bigger that I had expected.

Oracle: Hey, man, how'd your exams go? I'm sure you did well. You seem like a literate, intelligent person.

The MCS is definately expandable, as you can see from the attachment. It can go from three to infinity if a player so desires. Albeit, with the three- and four-length, the station looks a little lonesome standing there. BTW, the turn-around in my last post was just a place-holder for my benefit, until I finished the other parking lot sprites. I mean, unless everyone wants the turn-around, I surely can add it back in.

I've included the platform and termini sprites so that you check them out. As you can see, there are concourse roof sprites so that the termini can be placed anywhere within the station. I think that these should work, but if not, let me know so that I can change them.

I've added some trees and planters between the parking lots and concourse. I kinda like them. I gives some class to this grand, old station. Thanks for the suggestion, George.

As for drawing peeps - don't think so. It'll be waaaayyy time consuming, and I'd really like to move along to other stations. Maybe after a city stations set is released, and I do a few other projects, I can revisit this and draw the people in an upgrade.

Cheers!
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MCS SE Size Examples.png
MCS SE Size Examples.png (58.32 KiB) Viewed 1378 times
NW-SE MCS Platform Sprites.png
NW-SE MCS Platform Sprites.png (8.31 KiB) Viewed 1378 times
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Post by DanMacK »

Wallyweb...

The Circus train is indeed an easter egg, not a bug.

Oz... Looks awesome man, I can't wait to use these in my games! That MCS is ... Wow...
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Post by Purno »

OMG :shock: Looks awesome :!:
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