..,,;;:: Spain set ::;;,,.. 90% taster 1.24 available

lifeblood · Post by **lifeblood** » 08 Nov 2005 17:57

Looking nice!

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 09 Nov 2005 02:12

Aaah, the stupid forum bug, it sometimes stops telling me about new posts for no reason! And so I don't see and respond until I happen to come looking!

If you are wondering where I am, and I am not updating a site, please send me a PM! I've never not been notified on one of those.

I don't have the 443 in the list, did I miss it somewhere? So it isn't on the table. Send stats and dates and I'll add it.

We need to have the Excel file filled someday with all the stats if we will ever get this coded. We have SOME of the stats here but maybe not all. I have Excel, and the files from the US and Japan sets which we can use. Unless someone else wants to volunteer?

I've updated the tracking table, please tell me what's missing.

Sanchimaru · Post by **Sanchimaru** » 09 Nov 2005 23:21

Ah, I should have imagined that the problem was that! Next time I'll try to contact you sooner.

Well, I checked it and there are a few things to be added/changed:

> 436's nickname is mispelled: it says "suisas" but it is "suizas"
> Although they don't look much like the ones in the picture of the tracking table (I drew them basing on model cars), I did the freight open autorack cars here
> You say that you don't have the 443, but it's there. It's the yellow EMU with brown and white stripes, nicknamed "platanito"
> image for 444 and 450 seems broken
> add 450 series nickname "buque"
> Based on information given to me by the Skyscrapper forums members, I did a new livery for the 446, to be used during the 1st testing year (actually that's the livery of the 445, a previous model that didn't accomplish the planned objectives, but that served for developing the 446) Can you update the picture with this one? (attachment)

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 10 Nov 2005 02:35

OK, I've got all that. I also went back through and found some stuff that was done but wasn't flagged red. There's a few still yellow, because they are missing alternate cargoes. Really you are almost done. There's a few modern trains, and then the steamers, and a few freight cars. This may get finished yet!

We do need more data though, there is a lot missing. Wasn't there someone who said he could get information?

Sanchimaru · Post by **Sanchimaru** » 10 Nov 2005 14:12

Thanks for the major update! we are really close now...

I have to check some of the steamers, since they seem to be similar models to the ones of North American sets, and if that's the case, I'd love to borrow the sprites, and have them recolored if needed either by me or the self original artist if he's not too busy...

Also, since you have more experience, and if you have the spare time and the will to do it, I'd like you to have the Excel file done. However, let me know if I can be of any help. At the moment, I am going to gather the missing stats, I'll post them here when they're ready.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 10 Nov 2005 14:25

Most of the steamers (not all) were done by DanMacK. He's busy, but I expect he won't mind if you base yours off his, if you ask. The US Set readme has a list of who drew what. Why don't you make a list of which US locos match which Spanish locos, and who drew them? Then we can ask for permission and put the US ones on the tracking table, to start work.

DanMacK · Post by **DanMacK** » 10 Nov 2005 15:04

Sanchimaru, Excellent work man!

BTW, go nuts and use whatever you like

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 10 Nov 2005 15:08

Say, Sanchimaru, if you want both a challenge and credit in the US set, you could convert Dan's steamers into animated ones! At least the ones that would be also used in the Spain set. That way, the Spanish set would be the first fully-animated one, AND we'd have more animated ones (credited to you) in the US set. Whaddaya think?

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 10 Nov 2005 19:08

I now have an Excel file for this set, based off of the Japanset one. And it looks awful. Here are some of the issues we will need to deal with:

1. We have no end years or model lives. The end year, is the last year in which the vehicle should be available for sale. The model live is how long any particular locomotive of that model should last after it's purchased. A loco can be useful for many many years after it's been purchased, even if you can no longer buy them new from the factory.

2. We are missing most of the weights. We do have some weights in KG, but I'm not sure how to convert those to metric tons. (Yes, I can look it up, but first I want to make sure they are comparable.) Also, am I correct in assuming that those weights given in tons, are in fact metric tons?

3. We have a lot of powers given in kilowatts. Is there a convenient formula to convert kilowatts directly into HP and TE? My understanding is that it's not a straight math conversion because there are operative-range issues.

4. The TEs given are much larger than those I've seen before. I suspect we are using the wrong units, or need to divide by 100.

5. For the steam engines, we need to know the weight of the loco, and the weight of the tender when full. The data I have is mostly indecipherable.

6. A lot of the locos have a weight range, and I don't know what I should use.

7. Once we have all the weights, I believe we can convert steam HP to TE, and vice versa. Not sure about the diesels. Electrics mostly have the KW.

8. Many of the weights look wrong. I think the weight as posted may be the weight for an entire trainset (8 cars, or whatever), but what we need is the average weight for just one.

But it's a start, anyway. Here's the file.

Wile E. Coyote · Post by **Wile E. Coyote** » 10 Nov 2005 19:16

You can convert power in KW to power in HP with this formula:
power (HP)=power(KW)x1,341

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 10 Nov 2005 19:26

Yes, I found that formula too, my question is, is it applicable in this case?

I tried it, and I found another problem. I think again that some of the KW ratings are for an entire trainset. Consider the ICE3. It's rated at 8000KW. By that formula, it's 10,728HP, which is a lot. By comparison, the 500 series Nozomi Shinkansen has 1,500 HP, and takes off like a rocket. That's 1500HP per car, the original figures were much larger but we divided by the number of cars in a trainset. I think we need to do the same thing here. We have the same problem with weights.

lifeblood · Post by **lifeblood** » 10 Nov 2005 20:37

Here's some more information. Note that its all in metric, hps are kW, weight is in tonnes, TE is in kg.

It's from Jane's World Railways 1985, and I've put in all the info I could. Good luck with the rest.

Sanchimaru · Post by **Sanchimaru** » 10 Nov 2005 22:25

DanMacK thanks for your contribution! I am proud to have your models to be used here!
And I think that krtaylor's idea is a quite fair trade: I'll use the steamer sprites, and in return I will add animation to them to be used in the respective sets (or I will prepare the animated sprite frames for someone to code them as animated... how was it done?)

Also, I will begin to look for the technical information and see what can I get. I don't know about measure conversions, but I'm certain that I will be able to get most of the data.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 10 Nov 2005 22:56

A worthy idea. Does animation only involve the movement of the wheels' rods? There's nothing else that moves, right?

...

...

... the French Pacifics are roughly 25% done, but we might decide to delay production a bit for one extra feature... and those engines definitely do deserve something more than the others (they were the first Pacifics in Europe and some of the finest ones in the world)... is there any tutorial around and / or can one explain how this is done? Just drawing the rods in different positions and that's it?

Post by **PikkaBird** » 10 Nov 2005 23:45

krtaylor wrote:2. We are missing most of the weights. We do have some weights in KG, but I'm not sure how to convert those to metric tons.

A metric ton (or tonne) is 1000kg - metric is easy like that.

krtaylor wrote:3. We have a lot of powers given in kilowatts. Is there a convenient formula to convert kilowatts directly into HP and TE?

1 kW = 1.341 hp. Tractive effort is, as you say, based on operative issues (things like adhesive weight, balance, wheel size/traction motor gearing), so you really need to find that data out, and/or make an educated guess based on the TE of similar units.

krtaylor wrote:4. The TEs given are much larger than those I've seen before. I suspect we are using the wrong units, or need to divide by 100.

The units used for TE in TTDP are kN. You might also find TE values given in (metric) tons or kg (1 ton/1000kg = 9.8kN) or lbs (1000lb = 4.44kN).

And the formula used for calculating action 0 prop. 1F is:

<the tractive effort value you want> / (<the weight of the locomotive> * 9.8) * 255

I hope some of that is useful. :)

OzTrans · Post by **OzTrans** » 11 Nov 2005 01:03

Snail wrote:... Does animation only involve the movement of the wheels' rods? There's nothing else that moves, right?

... is there any tutorial around and / or can one explain how this is done? Just drawing the rods in different positions and that's it?

Correct, you have to take the engine (ignore the tender) sprites and make 4 versions of them, then you just put the rods into different positions.

See sample; this is a prototype and doesn't quite work to our satisfaction.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 11 Nov 2005 04:04

It is VERY useful for testing purposes, to make an animated GIF file out of the sprites. That way you can see how it looks in all angles, and test it. I did this with the one US loco that was animated; I'll attach that file here so you can see it.

I'll calculate all the HP from kw and note the ones that I think are wrong.

Concerning TE, the numbers I have either do not state units, or say kg. So I'll try that conversion too.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 11 Nov 2005 05:06

OK, I've done calculations and entered new data, and things are looking much better. I'm not posting it quite yet because I'm not quite done. I have a question:

lifeblood, about your second stats doc, of the EMUs:

1. Do I assume that there is one motor per car, except where noted?
2. What are the two weights for?

Once I get that, I'll add that data, and then we'll see where we are.

lifeblood · Post by **lifeblood** » 11 Nov 2005 14:36

Ouu yes, sorry, I meant to make that clear. One motor car except where noted, and the weights are M for motor car, T for trailer.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 11 Nov 2005 15:34

OK... Now I have a question for the coders.

When we first started the Japanset, there were a ton of MUs there, with the same issues of every third car powered, every fourth car, etc. At that time, the Patch control of powered wagons was basically ON or OFF. So if every fourth car had 1000 HP, then we set the HP as 250, and gave it to every car. That way the math worked out, and the performance was the same.

Now, my understanding is that powered wagons is more sophisticated, and you can set it that every fourth wagon provides another 1000 HP. Do we want to do it this way, or the old way?

My spreadsheet isn't coded to handle the second way, just the older way. Does it matter?

Also, last I remember, we don't have any control over the weight of MU wagons; they weigh the same as whatever a normal passenger or mail car would be. However, then you get into the operating-costs problem - namely, if you buy one MU as a loco, and several passenger cars to follow, they are all powered, but you are only paying the operating costs of just the one. You can fix this by forcing the buyer to multihead the actual MUs, not just to attach passenger and mail cars, but then you have some awkwardness when refitting things to get the right mix of mail and passengers. So, how shall we do things in this set?

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