Critique against current state of OTTD

[Dave]

Correct. Those of you who play for fun - that is fair enough; but there's only so many times you can clone your 4-way junction on a map and have 2000 trains running round before it starts to get boring.

You can never get bored with trying to operate a network realistically. I can imagine the horror of you lot knowing that, actually, in real life, a 4-way junction with 12000 bridges and tunnels DOESN'T EXIST!

[V]

Agreed.

Also, a point about difficulty: I think it's fine with the game being difficult, if it is realistic. If you don't have to spend a month learning the game mechanics, and can play based on real-life knowledge. An example is Operation Flashpoint: it's difficult, yes, but it is realistic, and so easy to feel and play right. A counterexample is basically any "hardcore" FPS, requiring unrealistic actions.
(Well, an exception to this rule is aircraft simulators, but modern aircraft are inherently difficult to operate; and simulators are very detailed).

The problem is when the game is difficult, but because of game mechanics, not realism. Like when you need to learn the 20-page ruleset just to start playing. In low-realism case, relaxing the difficulty somewhat allows the players to "roleplay", doing what they would do IRL, relaxed rules offsetting game mechanics inaccuracy.

Maybe I would even play Simutrans, if it was complete and not as sketchy. But I clearly don't mind increased realism options - they only add to the game, when they are done for realism's sake, not just for difficulty.

[Matrix666lb]

And that's what i'm talking about! Have you ever thought reality is easy? Trying to make OTTD money in real life is nearly.. impossible.. but I'm not going to tell you I want a real life simulator.. Just a little more near the reality.. The priority for this (and also fist step) is to make diagonall roads and bridges, possibility to go diagonally through the mountains. Don't you think so?

BtW someone spoked about SIMUTRANS, this game is great.. It really goes to the point of realism. Why don't you devs take some concepts from this game? This is my suggestion

It would be very nice to see houses built diagonally next to roads etc... but now it's only mine (our? ) dream..

And one more thing! About the abundance of money that are nowhere to spend i wrote a suggestion of solution, take a look here:
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=30448

[tamok]

Being far from criticism of the initial post of the topic I could propose (having experience of civil works - not railway but long distance fiber optics lines) some realistic enhancement.
I think the construction itself should be more difficult. What would be relatively easy to do (as I think) - for example - one has to actually own the land (let's say three squares wide) where the line is going to be built.
Another thing would be subsidies - only subsidised roads can be constructed and in given time (if one fails to do it on time - penalty for each day).
Another thing would be traps - some squares would be valuable - some hidden archaeological treasure or infrastructure - it one hits it (or make landscaping on it) the works should be stopped and a very high fine administered (in the beginning it could make you bankrupt).
In the cities - to destroy some part - one should ask local authorities- let's say - a year before.
And the finance - the construction budget should be something like 10% of the income - and one would never afford the whole line construction and be obliged to ask for loan (for example - if I construct the line on time - loan is automatically repaid if not - I have to pay it from my income).

The above - it is just the ideas if somebody want a game more realistic because personally I love the game as it is.

[V]

I see this - particularly the first point - as a pretty characteristic example of what I was speaking about. Complication for difficulty's sake. Why make the land purchase separate? The game should automate all trivial operations, and let the player concentrate on real decisions.

[SpamCannon]

I concur with thee, V. I find the way OpenTTD has killed the menial tasks a very pleasing thing indeed. It takes the dumb triviality, the time-wasting and the RSI out of the equation and leaves the game with a very good and a streamlined feel where all you really have to to do is make the BIG decisions.
That mountain needs to go. A route will come through here. This sector needs some forest to decieve the authorities. Goods' line will be mono. I need 5 more of this type of train. Instead of clickity-clickity-clicking all over the place for hours on end, buying 200 new wagons and lowering land point-by-point only to find yourself in front of a system-wide rebuilding because you need to convert everything to maglev, you just get your vision done.

I write songs to the glory of Autorail.

Well, not really, but if Autorail was a girl, I'd ask her out for a date because I really do like it very much.

[Dave]

I concur with thee, V. I find the way OpenTTD has killed the menial tasks a very pleasing thing indeed. It takes the dumb triviality, the time-wasting and the RSI out of the equation and leaves the game with a very good and a streamlined feel where all you really have to to do is make the BIG decisions.
That mountain needs to go. A route will come through here. This sector needs some forest to decieve the authorities. Goods' line will be mono. I need 5 more of this type of train. Instead of clickity-clickity-clicking all over the place for hours on end, buying 200 new wagons and lowering land point-by-point only to find yourself in front of a system-wide rebuilding because you need to convert everything to maglev, you just get your vision done.

I write songs to the glory of Autorail.

Well, not really, but if Autorail was a girl, I'd ask her out for a date because I really do like it very much.

That post will become the stuff of legend.

Start posting anecdotes in off-topic. You are a star.

[Matrix666lb]

Damn.. You are a star.. But if you love her.. than I'll tell you that all you do around is f*** with her, all the time around, and the same way. That's the way you LOVE HER.

tHE good thing is , that you'are doing this for free. So keep wasting your money on your small b****.

[Born Acorn]

Was that a poem or a riddle or something? Maybe a metaphor for life? I don't get it.

[N8king]

[quote="Born Acorn"]Was that a poem or a riddle or something? Maybe a metaphor for life? I don't get it.[/quote]

It was just like Romeo and Juliet, only it ended in tragedy.

mfg

[tamok]

I see this - particularly the first point - as a pretty characteristic example of what I was speaking about. Complication for difficulty's sake. Why make the land purchase separate? The game should automate all trivial operations, and let the player concentrate on real decisions.

To be more exact, I repeat myself - I like the game as it is - I would hardly change anything there. But the main point in the discussion was - "it is boring, unrealistic and one has too much money". Thus my proposals of what seems to me to be near reality, more interesting, challenging and spending more money.

Actually what I would change is time in the game - it goes far too fast for me.

BTW - The land purchase is very important and hard activity in a backbone or mobile networks engineering :). This would be a good theme for a separate game.

[Matrix666lb]

Haaahaaa... that's funny.. let's get of him (me?:P). Relating to what some People said about the difficult because of mechanics.. what do you think about Capitalism 2? Was it difficult because of it's mechanics or because of realism?

[Ailure]

I tend to mix realism and 'abusing game mechanics'. I used to flat mountains before, but nowdays I just make sure that the trains won't climb too steep and that's about it. I probably should start playing with the changed costs, as terraforming is way too cheap. <_< I like playing realistic, but I also kinda want the game to act realistic too somewhat. I try to strife for perfectionism, while not making the train layout too unrealistic (station complexes and junctions that is 5X bigger than the average town anyone?).

Can be said, the most unrealistic layouts seen are also the most ineffective ones, such as the one I attached below. Sharp turns on a terminus station anyone? :S (sadly, A LOT of people seem to build stations in this way on multiplayer...)

[Brianetta]

I see this - particularly the first point - as a pretty characteristic example of what I was speaking about. Complication for difficulty's sake. Why make the land purchase separate? The game should automate all trivial operations, and let the player concentrate on real decisions.

These operations aren't trivial. These operations are what makes being a transport tycoon a challenge. The game has just trivialised them from the very beginning.

You want to build a railway line between A and B. What's the business case? Who opposes you? Are there any political, environmental, archaeological or economic factors that might make you think again? How long will it take to construct this line? Do we have, or can we obtain, planning permission for the entire route? Who owns the land already? Will they sell? Can they be pressured into selling?

Exactly these issues are facing the project to rebuild the railway between Penrith and Keswick in north west England. What's this game about, anyway? It's a Tycoon game, not a tabletop railway game, but there's remarkably little in the way of actual business.

[V]

Well, I was speaking about a different thing - about just making it separate. What you're speaking about is a completely another game of completely different complication level. Not smth. to be expected anytime soon.

[DudeWheresMyTank]

I see this - particularly the first point - as a pretty characteristic example of what I was speaking about. Complication for difficulty's sake. Why make the land purchase separate? The game should automate all trivial operations, and let the player concentrate on real decisions.

These operations aren't trivial. These operations are what makes being a transport tycoon a challenge. The game has just trivialised them from the very beginning.

You want to build a railway line between A and B. What's the business case? Who opposes you? Are there any political, environmental, archaeological or economic factors that might make you think again? How long will it take to construct this line? Do we have, or can we obtain, planning permission for the entire route? Who owns the land already? Will they sell? Can they be pressured into selling?

Exactly these issues are facing the project to rebuild the railway between Penrith and Keswick in north west England. What's this game about, anyway? It's a Tycoon game, not a tabletop railway game, but there's remarkably little in the way of actual business.

If you'd really like to role-play, you can do all these in ttd. the local authority simulates issues with land ownership/usage, and if you want to calculate costs, you can hold the shift key while trying to do an operation. If you'd like to purchase land first before building you can do that as well. Do you really want a game where you have to face protesters opposing a new line going through their neighborhood?

[Brianetta]

If you'd really like to role-play, you can do all these in ttd. the local authority simulates issues with land ownership/usage, and if you want to calculate costs, you can hold the shift key while trying to do an operation. If you'd like to purchase land first before building you can do that as well. Do you really want a game where you have to face protesters opposing a new line going through their neighborhood?

Believe me, I do all this, but there's no detail. I have to invent my own problems, and frankly I'm too predictable for that to be fun.

I'd love to have a game where I have to face protesters opposing a new line going through their neighbourhood. I can decide whether to press on, whether to look for a different route, or to just run a bus instead.

In real life, railways are rarely unpopular, unless there are long stretches without stations. Having a railway station nearby improves the value of your property. As long as a railway company respects the environment, they're more likely to have trouble with politicians (who might listen to the road lobby), land owners, environmental pressure groups (only in sensitive areas - they won't be opposing urban renewal of public transport), people who want to build industrial estates in the same location, etc, etc.

That's the sort of detail I'd absolutely adore. Don't get me wrong - I'd still love there to be a load of off-switches so that you can keep your game simple. I'd just like to have the additional complexity that faces real transport companies.

This includes everything that's been stated about lead times on building stock, acquiring vehicles, etc. Lines should take a few years to build, trains should be delivered after they're ordered, and old rolling stock must be scrapped somehow if it has no value remaining.

I don't expect to see any of this stuff; that doesn't stop me wanting it.

[DudeWheresMyTank]

adding a new rail line here (vancouver, bc, canada) from the airport to downtown is HUGELY unpopular with the residents in the neighborhood. They're making it an underground route (cause there was no way in hell they would tolerate a noisy above-ground route) and it will take 10 years to build. All the businesses along that road (Cambie) are pretty much shut down because there's nearly no traffic access besides back-lanes. The line will take 10 years to construct and all nearly all side-roads and traffic patterns around that road wilil be altered.

I personally cross cambie on a a daily basis and now I have to make a 15 minute detour everyday to and from work. So, no, having a rail line come through your area is NOT always welcome

[mironos]

I see this - particularly the first point - as a pretty characteristic example of what I was speaking about. Complication for difficulty's sake. Why make the land purchase separate? The game should automate all trivial operations, and let the player concentrate on real decisions.

These operations aren't trivial. These operations are what makes being a transport tycoon a challenge.

See, to me, it's those sorts of operations that make being a transport tycoon in real life a pain in the a**. If I wanted to deal w/ all that, I'd pursue a career in a transport company.

Too little realism, and a game becomes too ridiculous to play. Too much realism, and it ceases to be a game at all.

Of course I don't begrudge you the desire for a highly detailed game such as the one you describe. I just hope it's something other than OpenTTD -- cuz I'd miss what this game already is.

[V]

Believe me, I do all this, but there's no detail. I have to invent my own problems, and frankly I'm too predictable for that to be fun.
I'd love to have a game where I have to face protesters opposing a new line going through their neighbourhood. I can decide whether to press on, whether to look for a different route, or to just run a bus instead.
[...]
I don't expect to see any of this stuff; that doesn't stop me wanting it.

I'm afraid we won't ever see stuff like that in a computer game. Well, I actually also am a total realism fan - my ideal of game is close to VR. But, well, not really to expect from a machine.
I think it's where roleplaying comes in - I personally enjoy roleplaying all kinds of problems in NationStates. Protests, international reactions, disasters... Real humans doing all this, that's what makes it unpredictable. There are almost no game mechanics, all about a virtual world of virtual nations. But it's totally another game, of course. I'm afraid a computer game can't implement things on a human-comparable level, and these things will become dull without intellect behind.