Critique against current state of OTTD

OpenTTD is a fully open-sourced reimplementation of TTD, written in C++, boasting improved gameplay and many new features.

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Do you agree with what is written in this post?

Yes, completely.
5
5%
Yes, mainly
14
13%
Indifferent
16
15%
No, mainly
44
40%
No, completely
30
28%
 
Total votes: 109

Matrix666lb
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Critique against current state of OTTD

Post by Matrix666lb »

At the beginning excuse me for my english, I’m polish.

The reason for which I wrote this critic is that the OTTD is running far away from people demands, it is not fullifing any of main player’s wishes. I also wrote this critic to motivate the developers to make some huge changes and to enlarge the area of gameplay.

The economics
The cons and proposals:
1. OTTD idea is to create the most prospering transport company as a main idea. Others are to grow up towns. In my opinion all these goals are to easy to achieve. Not because of simple methods of creating transportation network BUT because of LOW and INADEQUATE COSTS of operating. It’s so easy to make profit as to prepare a breakfast in real life. Well.. I don’t know to who this game is addressed, but for me this is a child play (I hope this sound harmfull). The economy should be enriched, split up costs into categories, make some economical in-game tools to analize the costs, so player can choose from the most effective and profitable way/connection. I think, this is a good idea, that could add an educational aspect to the game, let the people learn the logical way of thinking.
2. Somehow related to point 1. I propose to make more statistical tools, that let you choose the optimal routes and distances. Econometrical tools to let you forecast the changes in economy. I think that it can be interesting if this aspect is limited to a proper.
3. THE BREAK EVEN POINT – non linear, graphically illustrated in analysis of economic relations
4. City growth only based on passenger transport (ridiculous), make a growth within the quality of constructions (buildings quality based on amount and kinds of transported goods)
5. Competition is brought down (fetched?) to “who make the highest profit and company value”

The pros:
1. Everything easy as a childplay :evil:

Explanation of demands:
Everyone is looking for more than just establishing a transport company and making easy profit and making the “map railed”. Players want to challenge, they want a real economical war, where you can make others bankrupt and stay out of the game. You should allow them to make strategic alliances, to make a bargains against others. But in this state of gameplay don’t think about it – it would be useless and a gameplay killing. I wonder if it will ever make any sense, unless the economics is enriched (here I mean the marketing adaptation to the game – another proposal).



The graphics and construction flexibility
The cons and proposals:
1. Irrational things like: no bridges over diagonal tracks, no diagonal roads, only one kind of steepness of ground. Everything should be more flexible, abilities to build more kinds of permutations of things.
2. Multi-styled towns, random, ungrouped buildings, in every city the same, making the view rather funny than real. I propose making city areas to have different styles.
3. Trains on diagonal tracks look like aircraft while turning (wrong dimensioning)

The pros:
1. Graphics as they are, are – ok – roads are nice, buildings also, seas and other stuff – ok, the only problem are the combinations that makes the game sometimes look like a one big chaos.

Explanation of demands
People would like to see esthetical effects of their efforts, they want to take more control over things they see. It makes the game to have more sense. The game should bee seen not only in a economical perception. In real life the identity of corporation and it’s environment counts. In this meaning, the efforts of play should be perceived as an art of creating something new.




Others proposals I think would be useful to bring more depth to gameplay:
1. Specialization of company – the company that is specialized in one kind of transport should gain bonuses as it’s capital raises towards a specific kind (kind as a word of wide meaning: not only categorized to air/land buses/land trains/ ships, but also within those to for example passangers/coal/others…. this may implement more categories) of transportation, and disadvantages to other kinds, they neglect. This is a very mayor and important proposal – it reflects the concept and of course fact of “learning corporation” in the real world.
2. The second main proposal – the company has always a hierarchy, there should be an ability to hire a managers that would monitor the economy changes and propose what to do, inform player about proposed solutions and let him decide what to do.
3. Everything should be flexible – as flexible as possible, and limited to the point, where further changes would complicate the gameplay too far.

I’ve wrote this because many people I know complain about the boundaries of the gameplay, it may sound as being impossible to do. But I believe in developers references, and ambitions.

Thank you for reading mine (and not only mine) opinion of OTTD.
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Re: Critique against current state of OTTD

Post by klogg »

Matrix666lb wrote:Everyone is looking for more than just establishing a transport company and making easy profit and making the “map railed”.
No. That's exactly why I play this game.
See, I play this for fun. I like the tiny trains trains just because they are there.
I don't need to achieve anything. I don't need to win.

klogg
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Griff
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Post by Griff »

The developers work hard to "develop" this game further..after all, if it was not for the developers you wouldnt have openttd at all. None (I think) of the developers actually make games, they've had to learn to write in the game script..its not easy to implement these things you demand..some may even require the new map array..which wont be here for a few years.

Try looking inside the Openttd development board..and you'll see exactly how much work they do..most of the patches and nightlies include stuff we want and have asked for.
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StopRightThere
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Post by StopRightThere »

Matrix666lb, why all of these things? What's wrong with OTTD as-is?
...
...
...
[sarcasm]Are you offering to be an OTTD Developer?[/sarcasm] :twisted:
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Post by Lordmwa »

Nobody is forcing you to play the game if you dont like it just dont play. As the others have said the devs are working very hard and i believe the vast majority of people on this forum are behind them. Unless you actually do something then this kind of thing is compleatly useless
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Re: Critique against current state of OTTD

Post by Quark »

Matrix666lb wrote:1. OTTD idea is to create the most prospering transport company as a main idea. Others are to grow up towns. In my opinion all these goals are to easy to achieve. Not because of simple methods of creating transportation network BUT because of LOW and INADEQUATE COSTS of operating. It’s so easy to make profit as to prepare a breakfast in real life. Well.. I don’t know to who this game is addressed, but for me this is a child play (I hope this sound harmfull). The economy should be enriched, split up costs into categories, make some economical in-game tools to analize the costs, so player can choose from the most effective and profitable way/connection. I think, this is a good idea, that could add an educational aspect to the game, let the people learn the logical way of thinking.
OTTD idea (imho) isn't «to create the most prospering transport company», but to create good transport network with useful junctions :) all other is just for helping to do this task :)
About operating costs — try my build, it has land owning tax and train servicing costs.
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Re: Critique against current state of OTTD

Post by Born Acorn »

Matrix666lb wrote:1. Irrational things like: no bridges over diagonal tracks
Completed and in Trunk.
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Matrix666lb
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Post by Matrix666lb »

I see that everybody here looks at my post in the worst way. I want You to realize that this is not only my criticism. I don't mean anything by this. Just want to see how people perceive my point of view. It doesn't have anything to do with what you have to do. Persons taking a part of poll and making a replies may tell you more than all the posts that are on this whole forum. :) I really don't mean anything bad, but let us see. How the discussion will progress. And take out some conclusions for the future. Discussion to me is open.
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Post by Killer 11 »

Higher runingcost and bigger prices - acheavable via newgrf
Bridges over diagonal roads - already done
"Trains on diagonal tracks look like aircraft while turning (wrong dimensioning)" - what's wrong with them(appart from being in wrong scale)? Seriously if they were wrong then new grf authors would have noticed it.
Zoned towns - needs new map array

Oh and next time when you write such a message try to be less rude becouse to me this is more like a rant or something.
Matrix666lb
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Post by Matrix666lb »

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be rude. Indeed I'm very glad of the progress the developers made, but as you can see, there are many more ways for this game to develop. I made this post to let us see OTTD from the black side of the moon. And think about what is going to happen. Maybe the poll will give us some reasons to do so.
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IMO

Post by dylf »

Why is it a problem that people would like to take OTTD i a way where new features is added to the game.

IMO it will be the greatest is it was posible to add the features/package that include what you will play. Like you save your config file today. Then if you like to play it as it was in the good old days, you dont add anything. And so on.

Actually OTTD should rather become a platform where you could integrete web management of your company, multible maps side by side for large amuonts of players at the same time. This could evolve OTTD to be a game that you could play as a small group but also used for larger internet based games setups.
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Post by Ben_Robbins_ »

I think its a common mistake but the aim of TT isn't to become rich, its to become richer. Its relative. If I play with 7 others, and I'm a millionaire and there all billionaires then relatively speaking I'm poor. If playing by yourself If it takes you 100 years to get your first million then you havn't really achieved much, unless youve never played before.

Therefore these goals can be easy to achieve, but get ever harder to beat.

Effiecency as well as asthetical value is what I aim for, and after more than a decade I'm yet to get to any level that I feal I have fully complteted that goal. Therefore I would not say that its as easy as preparing breakfast, or as easy as childplay.

For some of the other problems you listed, I think it would go down better if you made sprites that are better and make a proposal, rather than just critise whats already there with little ground to stand on. ie. Can you make the trains on the diagonal tracks look more like you think they should?
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Post by LilDood »

Nobody has a right to demand anything from the developers and if there are some features that you would like then maybe you could have a go at making them yourself.
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Post by prissi »

Perhaps having more sound critics in the statement would help the case. E.g. citygrowth is not based on passengers, just about how well you serve your stations.

You are free to change your version yourself or play the old total challenge spinoff. OpenSource means, anybody can do. If he finds this to difficult, then he need to convince others. However, to suceed in this, a more kindly and constructive apptoach might be more helpful for the cause.

I think, many players will agree that the standard set is too easy. However, at a certain point you will always have enough money; look at all similar transport games: After the initial start, money looses its challenge and you strive for beautiful networks (TTD) or try to get all passengers where they want to go and update your lines (simutrans, 3DTTT), fullfill a mission or constantly renew your vehicles (some other games) ...

So in the end it boils down to a question of taste, which is rarely solved by a poll. (just my 5 cents though)
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Post by sc79 »

Firstly, unless you actually speak for everyone, better you dont claim such. Even claiming you speak for "some group of people I'm not going to disclose" isnt very good.

Secondly, unless you're actually developing some patches yourself, or sending an existing dev enough money they can quit their 'real' job, no complaining about the lack of features or slow development.

You have some nice ideas there. Quite a few have been mentioned before. Some are being worked on or can be influenced by different GRF combinations. Some already exist in the nightlies (bridges over diagonal track). And some, such as map rewrite (different slop angles etc) and economic adjustments, are planned for the future (cant do everything at once).
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Re: Critique against current state of OTTD

Post by csuke »

Matrix666lb wrote: ...

The economy should be enriched, split up costs into categories, make some economical in-game tools to analize the costs, so player can choose from the most effective and profitable way/connection. I think, this is a good idea, that could add an educational aspect to the game, let the people learn the logical way of thinking.
2. Somehow related to point 1. I propose to make more statistical tools, that let you choose the optimal routes and distances. Econometrical tools to let you forecast the changes in economy. I think that it can be interesting if this aspect is limited to a proper.

...

Players want to challenge, they want a real economical war, where you can make others bankrupt and stay out of the game. You should allow them to make strategic alliances, to make a bargains against others. But in this state of gameplay don’t think about it – it would be useless and a gameplay killing. I wonder if it will ever make any sense, unless the economics is enriched

...

1. Irrational things like: no bridges over diagonal tracks, no diagonal roads, only one kind of steepness of ground. Everything should be more flexible, abilities to build more kinds of permutations of things.
2. Multi-styled towns, random, ungrouped buildings, in every city the same, making the view rather funny than real. I propose making city areas to have different styles.
3. Trains on diagonal tracks look like aircraft while turning

...

Explanation of demands
People would like to see esthetical effects of their efforts, they want to take more control over things they see. It makes the game to have more sense. The game should bee seen not only in a economical perception. In real life the identity of corporation and it’s environment counts. In this meaning, the efforts of play should be perceived as an art of creating something new.

...

the company has always a hierarchy, there should be an ability to hire a managers that would monitor the economy changes and propose what to do, inform player about proposed solutions and let him decide what to do.
If you want to play a game from the Railroad Tycoon series then I can definately reccomend Railroad Tycoon 2, very good game...
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Re: Critique against current state of OTTD

Post by dtb1322 »

klogg wrote:
Matrix666lb wrote:Everyone is looking for more than just establishing a transport company and making easy profit and making the “map railed”.
No. That's exactly why I play this game.
See, I play this for fun. I like the tiny trains trains just because they are there.
I don't need to achieve anything. I don't need to win.
Lil Dood wrote:Nobody has a right to demand anything from the developers and if there are some features that you would like then maybe you could have a go at making them yourself.
I agree with Klogg and Lil Dood. I play it for the fun as a GAME. My challenge is to try to get the highest cargo ratings, build lines servicing the highest production centers, buy out my competitors and rebuild their lines into more effecient lines. And with the size of the maps now, that task can be endless! And that is heavenly.

Yes there are other features out there that I would like to see and I think that there are subtle and courteous ways to tell the developers what we would like to see (and there is a post for that?) But we must all remember that these guys (and maybe gals) are volunteers, doing it without pay just for the love of the game. I see people getting upset and I hope its not the developers, because if they get upset, they may not love the game anymore.
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Post by Invisble »

Most people love the game as it is. Yes they would like a few additions but they are being worked on and slowly implemented by the Dev's.

Personally I don't play the game for the challenge, instead I play it because it is fun. I get in from work and I want to wind down and OTTD is great for that. The challenge does not come from making money but from making the fastest, most efficient transport system you can. In many ways OTTD is nothing more than a giant lab in which you can experiment.

As I see it, the Dev's are doing a wonderful Job, and if you dislike the way the game is moving please feel free to create your own version, or find another game.
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Re: Critique against current state of OTTD

Post by Celestar »

Matrix666lb wrote:At the beginning excuse me for my english, I’m polish.

The economics
The cons and proposals:
1. OTTD idea is to create the most prospering transport company as a main idea. Others are to grow up towns. In my opinion all these goals are to easy to achieve. Not because of simple methods of creating transportation network BUT because of LOW and INADEQUATE COSTS of operating. It’s so easy to make profit as to prepare a breakfast in real life. Well.. I don’t know to who this game is addressed, but for me this is a child play (I hope this sound harmfull). The economy should be enriched, split up costs into categories, make some economical in-game tools to analize the costs, so player can choose from the most effective and profitable way/connection. I think, this is a good idea, that could add an educational aspect to the game, let the people learn the logical way of thinking.
2. Somehow related to point 1. I propose to make more statistical tools, that let you choose the optimal routes and distances. Econometrical tools to let you forecast the changes in economy. I think that it can be interesting if this aspect is limited to a proper.
3. THE BREAK EVEN POINT – non linear, graphically illustrated in analysis of economic relations
4. City growth only based on passenger transport (ridiculous), make a growth within the quality of constructions (buildings quality based on amount and kinds of transported goods)
5. Competition is brought down (fetched?) to “who make the highest profit and company value”

The pros:
1. Everything easy as a childplay :evil:

Explanation of demands:
Everyone is looking for more than just establishing a transport company and making easy profit and making the “map railed”. Players want to challenge, they want a real economical war, where you can make others bankrupt and stay out of the game. You should allow them to make strategic alliances, to make a bargains against others. But in this state of gameplay don’t think about it – it would be useless and a gameplay killing. I wonder if it will ever make any sense, unless the economics is enriched (here I mean the marketing adaptation to the game – another proposal).
I'm just finalising plans on how to rewrite the entire economy/difficulty thing. Would you browse the forums a little, you'll see my proposals and see that a lot of stuff you mentioned is about to be implemented.
Matrix666lb wrote: The graphics and construction flexibility
The cons and proposals:
1. Irrational things like: no bridges over diagonal tracks, no diagonal roads, only one kind of steepness of ground. Everything should be more flexible, abilities to build more kinds of permutations of things.
First of all this is not irrational, but a limitation of the basic game code. Changing the bridge stuff means changing a s*** of things throughout the entire code, but: we've done it, and it's there. About the steepnesses, they will be more flexible at some point but there's no hurry, as first of all this will be another crapload of changes plus the added benefit to gameplay is minimal.
Matrix666lb wrote: 2. Multi-styled towns, random, ungrouped buildings, in every city the same, making the view rather funny than real. I propose making city areas to have different styles.
Things will look quite a bit differently once newhouses is merged, the rest is up to the grf developers.
Matrix666lb wrote: 3. Trains on diagonal tracks look like aircraft while turning (wrong dimensioning)
I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Matrix666lb wrote: 1. Specialization of company – the company that is specialized in one kind of transport should gain bonuses as it’s capital raises towards a specific kind (kind as a word of wide meaning: not only categorized to air/land buses/land trains/ ships, but also within those to for example passangers/coal/others…. this may implement more categories) of transportation, and disadvantages to other kinds, they neglect. This is a very mayor and important proposal – it reflects the concept and of course fact of “learning corporation” in the real world.
I don't see that happening ...
Matrix666lb wrote: 2. The second main proposal – the company has always a hierarchy, there should be an ability to hire a managers that would monitor the economy changes and propose what to do, inform player about proposed solutions and let him decide what to do.
This is a nice idea, but there's no one with the time for coding this.
Matrix666lb wrote: 3. Everything should be flexible – as flexible as possible, and limited to the point, where further changes would complicate the gameplay too far.
This is a rather unusable statement, as it is totally generalised.


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Post by KUDr »

Matrix666lb: Currently this game is more oriented to users searching for fun than to those wanting real challenge.

I also play it for fun:
- I like to see complex (and reasonable) transportation network which needs to be optimized here and there for higher throughput and so on.
- I want to see my trains making money for hauled cargo
- but what I definitely don't like is to start with let say $300k, connect few industries and then wait and wait for years to be able to buy another train, just because of too high running cost or maintenance fee.
- I like this game because it is so easy to make your own relatively complex rail network and run the trains on it but still hard enough to keep this network reliable under heavy load and optimize it for unexpected events.
- When I can choose between two features, one making the game harder to play and another one giving me easier way how to build/manage something and improving playability... try to guess which one I choose...
- If I want some feature and think it should really be there, I can sit and try to implement it. Exactly the same as you can do. Then I share it with others and ask them for their opinions. Again exactly what you can do as well. And if it will be considered good feature, then I can commit it and share it with everyone. Here you need to do it bit differently if you are not a dev. But don't worry. When we find some high quality patch with positive user feedback, it gets into trunk soon.
- If you dislike this game so much, you (and your group of secret agents) can always start you own project (either from the scratch or as OpenTTD fork) and make it develop different way.
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