Airplanes In Multiplayer are not balanced

[Pho-Enix]

You can win just building airports and buying airplanes... they bring a way too much money.
Are there some settings that can fix this? Or i understand something wrong.

[planetmaker]

They're also not balanced in single player. Few things you can do:

- Set plane speed to 1/4 (which is default)
- Set number of allowed planes to something very low (e.g. 10 or even 0)
- Use a basecost NewGRF which modifies the costs and especially running costs of planes to incredible levels. The linked one is also available from BaNaNaS

[bokkie]

YACD (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54253) and AV8 (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=57094) is also a nice combination: you can't just build all big, fast airplanes.

[PikkaBird]

The biggest problem is large maps and town growth, IMO. Pick two cities a long way apart and just keep spamming the largest aircraft; unlimited money printing regardless of how well balanced the aircraft may be (av8, for example).

Try av8 on a 256x256 map with a newgrf that limits town growth (like TaI houses), and the air game becomes a little more interesting.

[Torrasque]

Perhaps YAIM fix the problem ?
I just try with two airport and they seems do cost a lot more now!

Does someone has a feedback on a longer game?

Thanks

[planetmaker]

Perhaps YAIM fix the problem ?
I just try with two airport and they seems do cost a lot more now!

Does someone has a feedback on a longer game?

Thanks

That's in trunk now, so you can test with a recent nightly. Just make sure to turn on the setting which enables maintenance costs. Mind also that other means of transport also cost lots in that case

[Pho-Enix]

So... how about fixing it, i think at least in multipleer.
I think removing planes entirely is not an option, but it is possible to hardly limit them.
For example, when player starts - he has limit of one plane, and while game progresses this limit increases slightly.
So planes will be just small icome for entire game, so all players should begin game by building 1 airport and 1 plane, like in starcraft when you send your workers to minerals first

[Supercheese]

So planes will be just small icome for entire game, so all players should begin game by building 1 airport and 1 plane, like in starcraft when you send your workers to minerals first

Having only one airport would be pointless. You need two.

[Pho-Enix]

oh sure 2 airports and 1 plane, but thats just a suggestion, numbers can vary. I think this improvement can balance multiplayer without removing aircraft.

[LSky]

You can also download a newgrf that reduces passenger payment.

[Arie-]

Or limit the number of planes allowed.
Or cut the speed of planes to 1/4th
Or play on a moderated server.
Or don't play with people that have that style of play.
etc.

It's just how planes work in OpenTTD.

[Pho-Enix]

If you cut speed to 1/4, they will still be not balanced.
I think multiplayer game must be balanced without "not playing with people that like that style" or "moderating server"
and even without downloading newgrfs. Raw limiting doesn't help, because if you set limit to 5 for example, first thing what you need to do for victory is build 5 planes in very beginning. So my suggestion is making some interesting and smart change to that mechanics. For example making adjustable limit. But i think that change must be in game standart set, so players can just play balanced multiplayer without being involved in deep process of setting balance by themselves.

[LSky]

If you cut speed to 1/4, they will still be not balanced.
I think multiplayer game must be balanced without "not playing with people that like that style" or "moderating server"
and even without downloading newgrfs. Raw limiting doesn't help, because if you set limit to 5 for example, first thing what you need to do for victory is build 5 planes in very beginning. So my suggestion is making some interesting and smart change to that mechanics. For example making adjustable limit. But i think that change must be in game standart set, so players can just play balanced multiplayer without being involved in deep process of setting balance by themselves.

This is pretty much correct. Yes, there are quite a few options one can change, but in the end airplanes are still very unbalanced. The options available now don't provide a sensible solution to this issue. Since this is a rather fundamental aspect of the game, it ought to be addressed properly, not with a few newgrfs or simply limiting the amount of planes one can build. It can't be like; "OpenTTD is a really cool game! Oh, by default it's unbalanced so you can't build planes."

[Kogut]

It is hard (read as impossible) to make default settings optimal for everybody. Therefore standard vehicles and most of settings are copy of original TTD.

[LSky]

It is hard (read as impossible) to make default settings optimal for everybody. Therefore standard vehicles and most of settings are copy of original TTD.

What you're saying is entirely true, however. This is not about making something optimal for everyone, it's about the lack of balance by default. I understand the urge to stick to the original TTD, but is that worth keeping the game fundamentally unbalanced?

[Kogut]

It is hard (read as impossible) to make default settings optimal for everybody. Therefore standard vehicles and most of settings are copy of original TTD.

What you're saying is entirely true, however. This is not about making something optimal for everyone, it's about the lack of balance by default. I understand the urge to stick to the original TTD, but is that worth keeping the game fundamentally unbalanced?

Because after change it will be unbalanced/too hard/unrealistic/unplayable/irritating, depending on person. It is better to keep default vehicles as "easy, basic version" (still, people have problems in their first games).

Main problem with aircrafts is that "build 2 airports and planes" in rather undeveloped part of game, so in multiplayer it is doomed to be ignored (worse than trains) or game breaking (better than trains).

[LSky]

It is hard (read as impossible) to make default settings optimal for everybody. Therefore standard vehicles and most of settings are copy of original TTD.

What you're saying is entirely true, however. This is not about making something optimal for everyone, it's about the lack of balance by default. I understand the urge to stick to the original TTD, but is that worth keeping the game fundamentally unbalanced?

Because after change it will be unbalanced/too hard/unrealistic/unplayable/irritating, depending on person. It is better to keep default vehicles as "easy, basic version" (still, people have problems in their first games).

Main problem with aircrafts is that "build 2 airports and planes" in rather undeveloped part of game, so in multiplayer it is doomed to be ignored (worse than trains) or game breaking (better than trains).

I agree once again, however the fact that planes are unbalanced can be objectively determined, just like we can determine right now that they are unbalanced. With that in mind, changes can still be made. The main problem you address is exactly the type of issue that needs to be dealt with to solve this problem. Similar issues need to be dealt with for road vehicles and ships and we are on our way to making this a more balanced game with 4 viable modes of transportation.

[Pho-Enix]

So, maybe we must be more specific.
How about adding option in multiplayer game creation window
'Balanced Multiplayer' (and it will be selected by default).
And this option will tweak a little rules of the game.
And with this we still have Single Player like in old TTD, and we have balanced Multiplayer,
which can be changed to old style if someone wishes.
But whole idea is to set balanced multiplayer in core set of game. I know many players, that wish to try OpenTTD (and they want to play Multiplayer), but they are very disappointed, that they have to download some newgrfs or deal with unbalance. They are like:
"Game must be balanced, why i have to download some crap and going deep in options"
I think game can be balanced with only few little but smart changes. No need in major reconstruction of whole cargo system.

[planetmaker]

'Balanced Multiplayer'

I think you're mixing two different things here which are not related and independent:
- economic balance
- player balance (fairness)

Multiplayer, as is, is fair. None of the players has an unfair advantage. That is totally independent of how aircraft work as long as they work the same for everyone. Thus making a setting default to something different in multiplayer than in singleplayer would not help; it would be more confusing, add extra complexity, and would make e.g. NewGRF or AI config unpredictable.

Economic balance is something entirely different. But then it should be solved for both multiplayer and singleplayer.

which can be changed to old style if someone wishes.

Well. You can change it to new style now. So...?

[Yexo]

So, maybe we must be more specific.
....
I think game can be balanced with only few little but smart changes. No need in major reconstruction of whole cargo system.

I'm still waiting for those "few little but smart" changes that can be done to make the game more balanced. Than we'd finally have something to discuss.