YACD - Yet Another CargoDestinations (v2.3 released)

[Eddi]

[...] only becomes an issue with YACD enabled [...]

without this patch, cargo never ever unloads at the same station it was loaded, even if that station would accept the cargo. if you used force unload, the cargo won't be delivered. so this is definitely a bug in this patch. the rest of your argument looks like nonsense to me...

[ChoHag]

the rest of your argument looks like nonsense to me...

Oooh, vicar!

Which part, exactly, looks like nonsense? The idea that passengers might choose to start their journey at the stop closest to their initial location, or the observation that they maybe shouldn't unload and re-board at every stop along their route?

[Eddi]

it's nonsense because it doesn't adress the problem at all. the problem is that cargo gets generated which has the same station as target as well as source station, there wouldn't be any problem if the target was a different station with overlapping catchment area.

[ChoHag]

... cargo gets generated which has the same station as target as well as source station ...

Try again, this time with reading comprehension enabled, and you will find that a proposed solution to that very issue is, in fact, the entire point of my post. Take for example the phrase "outright reject cargo starting and finishing at the same station".

The "only becomes an issue with YACD enabled", which you picked up on, indicates that YACD has changed the game mechanics so as to create this bug, hence why it is not present in regular openttd.

... there wouldn't be any problem if the target was a different station with overlapping catchment area.

This is in fact exactly what would happen if a journey was defined as starting at the closest station to the source tile and ending at the closest station to the destination tile (after journeys where the closest start and end stations are the same are rejected).

Hamilton & Co., 1975-01-31.png (39.73 KiB) Viewed 3417 times

• Passengers starting or finishing at 1, have only the choice of Buckley.
• Passengers to/from 2 can choose Buckley or Buckley Central, and would have no preference either way except station ratings.
• Passengers to/from 3 can choose Buckley Central or Buckley East, but would lean towards choosing Buckley East as it is the closer of the two.

If there were a house at 4 rather than a road, passengers wishing to travel from 4 to 3 could join at Buckley and travel two stops to Buckley East, which if they were real people they would be very likely to do, even though both the start and end tiles are within the catchment area of Buckley Central. This perfectly valid journey would never happen if the naïve solution of simply rejecting journeys starting and ending within the same catchment area were chosen.

Passengers moving from 1 to 2, while they can go by bus from Buckley to Buckley Central, probably would not use transport at all because the distance of the destination tile from the destination station is the same as the distance of the destination tile from the source station. Likewise passengers from 2 to 3.

As an additional check, the cost of a journey could be considered, thus the passenger living on the street at 4 can walk to Buckley Central to catch the bus to Buckley East and enjoy the free cake at 3, saving the cost of travelling the extra stop from Buckley. This may not be necessary though. I have no idea how it would look when considering longer journeys using other modes of transport.

[Eddi]

This is in fact exactly what would happen if a journey was defined as starting at the closest station to the source tile and ending at the closest station to the destination tile (after journeys where the closest start and end stations are the same are rejected).

i don't think so. you calculate the start and end station first, based on pathfinder. if then start and end station happens to be the same, you drop the cargo package. you don't need to reroute it to a different station with same catchment area.

[Lupin III]

... it can make sense for a person to start and finish a journey in the same cachement area. To take a real life example, ...

It can make sense to start/stop in the same catchment area IRL. But when you talk about real life: how many people have you seen, that take a plane trip to another city and back just to get to a shop two blocks away!?
Real life misses the point here. When you have to transport something away and back to the start again to deliver it, there's something wrong.
Discarding such cargo packets could even be argued to be realistic in real life: every part of the same station will be connected very well "internally", which means everything within the stations area can be reached by foot. No transport needed.

[Tafidis]

Ok, pax travelling to the next city only to come back to the same station is clearly a bug, no need to keep beating it until it dies. Obviously, Michi_cc should be aware of it by now and will hopefully be providing a fix soon.

which means everything within the stations area can be reached by foot. No transport needed.

In-game catchment areas do not always represent walking distances. What about the catchment area of an intercontinental airport? Should all of that be "walking distance" too?

[Lupin III]

In-game catchment areas do not always represent walking distances. What about the catchment area of an intercontinental airport? Should all of that be "walking distance" too?

Some airports have a pickup service or someone could take a taxi. You could see is as that. It just means they can get their without a public transport service. I am mostly for more complex and more "realistic" gameplay, but some things need to be simplified.

Btw. this would be some nice idea: you can build a pickup-service at your station and increase it's catchment area by one (and increasing running costs) or something like that.

[Tafidis]

One more issue (I don't know if it was mentioned).

I keep getting subsidy offers for which no cargo is generated. E.g. passengers from town x to town y, but town x does not have y listed in its destinations.

Same for industries. Goods from factory x to town y, but town y is not one of the destinations for goods in factory x.

[Alberth]

I keep getting subsidy offers for which no cargo is generated. E.g. passengers from town x to town y, but town x does not have y listed in its destinations.

Same for industries. Goods from factory x to town y, but town y is not one of the destinations for goods in factory x.

The announcement of 1.2 and 2.0 at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=945285#p945285 state that subsidies are fixed.
What version do you use?

[dasy2k1]

From first impressions this is drastically different to cargodest, with cargodest the issue is being able to cope with the thousands of passengers waiting at each stop in a town with only 700 residents!

with YACD this seems to be the case of trying to get any pax at all!

one major usability improvement needed tho is to be able to sort the destination list by both cargo transported and cargo avalable

[bokkie]

Crash!

(was having a lot of fun btw, don't want this post to sound negative )

[Tafidis]

What version do you use?

v2.2. I overwrote the savegame I meant to post on this. Old habit of mine to always keep one savegame per map which I constantly overwrite.

I will try to keep a save next time it happens.

[dasy2k1]

Im not sure if this is a bug or what with my mixed mineral trains (keeps the station rating better than with block trains)
but they dont seem to be loading properly dispite there being plenty of stockpiling in the station...
(they are loading, but only with new stock flowing into the station, ignoring whats allready there)

screenie and sav attached

[Leanden]

I think the cargo itself is being picked up but the capacity window can't show different cargo origins iirc, so it always just shows the station it was collected from. This behaviour happens in trunk with transfers too.

[dasy2k1]

No, the old cargo is definatly staying at the station.

the capacity window allways shows the actual load of the vehicle (as do the loading indicators which agree with the capacity window)

If the cargo is from multiple locations then the capacity window will just show one of those but thats hadly a problem.

the issue here is that the cargo isnt even being loaded onto the train

[Eddi]

can you check the "next hop" view of the station window? maybe one of your trains has a different order list, and the cargo will explicitely want to go on that train.

[planetmaker]

Let me here note down before I forget what I noticed when playing quite a bit YACD (2.2) recently. Some of it may or may not have been said in this or similar form:

* Town / Industry views should resize to the width of the strings showing the destinations
* It will be very helpful to see for secondary industries "these industries (want to) ship to me", that is the revers of the usual "customers view".
* with primary industries which have many possible customers it gets very jumpy on small maps. It's virtually impossible to get a somewhat decent station rating unless all potential customers are covered by the network *somehow*. See the coal network in the attached (FIRS) savegame. I'm unsure how much this can be fixed for NewGRFs which define a probability. But maybe the volatility of the customers could be reduced, but more evenly spread, to more than 3 customers concurrently in these cases

* We had somewhen an (irreproducable) desync. Sorry for not being more specific

But again, it's great fun. It really is about networks. One has to consider which cargo and industries to start with so that one can possibly re-use straight away some infrastructure. That got quite a bit more difficult in the starting phase.

[Eddi]

i generally start with passengers

imho, industry rating (for use with production change and closing chances) should only count the actually connected destinations, not all of them, so if you have an industry with e.g.

• 60 of 100 for A
• 40 of 100 for B
• 0 of 100 for C

then the total should be treated as "100 of 200 (50%), not "100 of 300 (33%)". e.g. ECS is very picky about ratings below 70%

something i noticed while playing with FIRS: a town that has a hotel as "customer" will send almost all (or at least a majority) of passengers to that hotel, hardly any to other towns. these changes might need some fine tuning.

[bokkie]

My observations after 1 game from 1950-2000:
- when beginning, you have to be more picky about where to start than in vanilla OTTD. More challenging = more fun in this case. Sometimes it is hard to find the best options. Planetmakers solution would make it easier. Maybe it's also possible to add a view on the minimap, not to see what is connected but to see between which industries you could provide services? (Not taking 'other destinations' into acount).
- AI's: Trans and SimpleAI didn't survive, AIAI works pretty good.
- after ~1990, it's hard to keep up with passenger production. Pax travel much longer than in vanilla OTTD and with my map size etc, it's hard to get rid of them (nuclear solutions not taken into account). Apparently I have to lower map size. Other solutions would be GRF's with lower pax creation (there is an early houses mod floating around I believe) or the passenger reducement patch.
- goods and mail are pretty intensive to transport because you want to cover all houses. I haven't had time in my map to do it, I can imagine it's also rewarding to have a network which nails it.
- especially in larger cities, the outgoing cargo list is cluttered. Sorting options would be nice and maybe dividing the information in columns?

As posted, I had one crash but I could continue with the save. Not sure what happened.

Map settings: 256x512, medium density industries and towns, 50% water
NewGRF (most important ones): Swedish houses, PBI + brick chain, eGRVTS, AV8, FISH, NuTracks.

It's been a while since I reached 2000 in one of my games so it surely was fun