Chill's patchpack v14_7

[romazoon]

Hi Chill

Thanks for your answer. (and do not bother (for me) to look for the version i should use... i ll be patient, or i ll anyway do it on 1.1.0 and then wait until chillpatchpack become compatible..)

My opinion about the raised problem, Savegame compatibility Will have to be broken somedays... so why not now ? (i mean when your done of course )

Also, I ve got many games running on the V12 of your pack... so of course i could shout " Nooooo", but i keep thinking about how we can t open newly made scenario (made with 1.1.0) is a "huge" downside. Also we (user of chillpatchpack) are all able to keep a folder with the V12 in case we really want to go further on a savegame made with it.


Didn t know you run your pack as a democracy , but i can t complain about that and i m in for the poll (what s written upthere is just my opinion )

[Dante123]

nice to see the patchpack is still getting better! i love it!

[ChillCore]

Thanks for your answer. (and do not bother (for me) to look for the version i should use... i ll be patient, or i ll anyway do it on 1.1.0 and then wait until chillpatchpack become compatible..)

It's no biggie to search the code for the savegame magic ...
I started keeping patchpack savegame compatibility with savegameversion 147. That means that all trunk savegames made with r20620 or earlier should load without problems.

As I mentioned I used coopsavegames for testing before and I could still load them in later versions after removing the headquarter from those games ...
As a scenario does not contain a headquarter, those made with later versions might load but to know at what version I really lost it testing has to be done.

Fortunately Devs were so kind to inlude at what revisions the savegamebumps were done in saveload.cpp.
If someone wants to take the time to test, the search can be limited to the versions listed below.

Code: Select all

 *  147   20621
 *  148   20659
 *  149   20832
 *  150   20857
 *  151   20918
 *  152   21171
 *  153   21263
 *  154   21426
 *  155   21453
 *  156   21728
 *  157   21862
 *  158   21933
 *  159   21962
 *  160   21974

Most likely it is somewhere closer to savegame version 148 then somewhere near the end of the list ...

My opinion about the raised problem, Savegame compatibility Will have to be broken somedays... so why not now ? (i mean when your done of course )

That was what I have been thinking before too but it is just nice to be able to continue a patched savegame with newer versions.
When writing a single patch for trunk inclusion this is not worth the effort and it causes unwanted clutter in the savegamecode.

Also, I ve got many games running on the V12 of your pack... so of course i could shout " Nooooo", but i keep thinking about how we can t open newly made scenario (made with 1.1.0) is a "huge" downside. Also we (user of chillpatchpack) are all able to keep a folder with the V12 in case we really want to go further on a savegame made with it.

yes, you can keep a version of v12 seperately to continue a savegame but you will be tempted to play with the newer version anyway and the savegame that you intended to continue with the older version will be forgotten and no longer played.
I still have a longer lasting savegame from v6 or something that I intended to continue playing but honestly I can not remember when I opened that the last time. My current game has been going since v10 and is way more evolved (and still not finished).

Didn t know you run your pack as a democracy , but i can t complain about that and i m in for the poll (what s written upthere is just my opinion )

Semi-democracy ...
Anyone is free to request additions, make suggestions for improvements or even provide code ...
I reserve the right to veto,
- If I know that a certain patch still has serious bugs. (Minor bugs I can live with ...)
- If there are unsolvable conflicts with already included patches.
- If I do not see codechanges as an improvement.
- If codechanges limit players freedom to play as they wish.
- If am not able to provide because of lack of skillz (-> by which I mean mine).
- ...

nice to see the patchpack is still getting better! i love it!

Thanks, I love it too.

Credits ofcourse also to individual patchwriters, Devs and bugreporters for it getting better as time progresses.

[Eddi]

Keeping trunk compatibility and patchpack compatibility at the same time is not easy ... I have made an error somewhere before and lost compatibility with recent trunk. At first I could not load coopsavegames anymore without removing the headquarter in these games. At some later time there were some things that I did that break recent trunk compatibility even more. (read: I did not bother much as it was already broken anyway.)
I can restore compatibility with recent trunk (also 1.1.0) but that means that I have to break compatibility with previous versions of the patchpack.
Untill now I have chosen to keep compatibility with previous versions of the patchpack ...

The upside of restoring trunk compatibility would be that I can truly update CargoDist to the current version as one of the recent changes in the savegame code (that I have not yet included) breaks savegame compatibility with previous versions too ...
The downside is that everyone has to finish their games and start over if they want to play with the new(er) version once I restore it. (Afterwards I can keep it again for a few versions.)

¿Maybe I should make a poll to know what the majority of the patchpack players prefer?
For me personally it does not matter much as I was about to start a new game soonish anyway.

ideally you would find a way to keep compatibility with at least one patch pack version (e.g. v12), and break compatibility only with older versions (v9-v11)

[ChillCore]

Keeping trunk compatibility and patchpack compatibility at the same time is not easy ... I have made an error somewhere before and lost compatibility with recent trunk. At first I could not load coopsavegames anymore without removing the headquarter in these games. At some later time there were some things that I did that break recent trunk compatibility even more. (read: I did not bother much as it was already broken anyway.)
I can restore compatibility with recent trunk (also 1.1.0) but that means that I have to break compatibility with previous versions of the patchpack.
Untill now I have chosen to keep compatibility with previous versions of the patchpack ...

The upside of restoring trunk compatibility would be that I can truly update CargoDist to the current version as one of the recent changes in the savegame code (that I have not yet included) breaks savegame compatibility with previous versions too ...
The downside is that everyone has to finish their games and start over if they want to play with the new(er) version once I restore it. (Afterwards I can keep it again for a few versions.)

¿Maybe I should make a poll to know what the majority of the patchpack players prefer?
For me personally it does not matter much as I was about to start a new game soonish anyway.

ideally you would find a way to keep compatibility with at least one patch pack version (e.g. v12), and break compatibility only with older versions (v9-v11)

I think that the effort would be the same ... if I can restore it while keeping v12 compatible with the "fixed" version then all savegames with v9_9_4 can still be loaded also.
I know where my problem/error is (I think).
eg. I did:

Code: Select all

- if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(147))
+ if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(KEEP_COMPATIBLE_1_SV)

Which I know breaks savegamecompatibilty with recent trunk savegames, and I think it has to be written like this:

Code: Select all

- if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(147))
+ if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(147) || IsSavegameVersionBefore(KEEP_COMPATIBLE_1_SV))

But I am not 100% sure ...
I did a litle bit of testing before but got distracted by the many other things that needed fixing at the time...

Edit: copypaste error in sample code...

[Athorium]

Hello. Is there a way to insert NewGRF on a created game? I'm doing a map but I need some GRF to be implemented and I can't add them on the game...

[ChillCore]

Hello. Is there a way to insert NewGRF on a created game? I'm doing a map but I need some GRF to be implemented and I can't add them on the game...

There is a way ... search for "changing GRFs ingame" if you need to know how. There are many topic about it already and does not need to be discussed again.
Be warned that doing so will mess up your savegamestate beyond repair so you are better of changing them from the main menu and starting over (or use the ones that are already in).

Not to sound mean but,
If things do go wrong, and they will later in your game(*), you will receive little to no support unless you can show that your problem is unrelated to the changing of GRFs midgame or if you can reproduce without changing GRFs.

(*)Ask the many people that have experienced these problems before ... (you can include me too as one of them )

[Athorium]

Hello. Is there a way to insert NewGRF on a created game? I'm doing a map but I need some GRF to be implemented and I can't add them on the game...

There is a way ... search for "changing GRFs ingame" if you need to know how. There are many topic about it already and does not need to be discussed again.
Be warned that doing so will mess up your savegamestate beyond repair so you are better of changing them from the main menu and starting over (or use the ones that are already in).

Not to sound mean but,
If things do go wrong, and they will later in your game(*), you will receive little to no support unless you can show that your problem is unrelated to the changing of GRFs midgame or if you can reproduce without changing GRFs.

(*)Ask the many people that have experienced these problems before ... (you can include me too as one of them )

The only modification I need is not important to have risk of 'damage' the save imo. It's only to add FISH ships that, for error, i not added it before and now it no appears in my game :-/

Can you say me where you seen the steps to change it ingame? I don't find them.

Thanks.

[Hem]

Thanks ChillCore and romazoon for your answers! A few answers to these answers:

1) Sorry about that, my bad, you're right, it does make sense, then, after all. Although, the every things costs are still the same so it becomes hard! I hadn't figured that before... Hm...

2) I never changed anything in the advanced settings, and I don't even know what it was! So when you asked me about the asymetric stuff, pfew, I was lost! I changed it, it did not solve the problem, nor setting the Cargo Handling at OFF! And now I tried manual for the Other cargo distribution and saw it did not change anything, I kind of forgot if it was previously set at asymetric or symetric! So I don't know what to put back bah, anyway...

3) Ok, only semesters, I did not know, thank you!

4) No subsidies whatsoever proposed so far, that's sad! Doesn't help my economy!

CHillCore, thanks for suggesting to help me again, that's very nice. I'm pretty sure it must help your work in a way, too, and even other people who could read that. Here is my guineapig-game file Tell us!

[romazoon]

I gave a try to your savegame,

I think you need to understand better the way cargodist handle the destinations... if you set anything to symetric, then cargodist plannify an equal amount of cargo to go back and forth on the said link and of course give the cargos a specific destination to reach. only recomanded to use with passenger and mail.
Now the asymetric, is still giving cargos a destination to reach but it won t need the same amount of same cargo to be returned on the said link. This is recommanded mostly for express cargos (goods and foods) but it works also with other freight.
Now the Manual, is allowing you to use the great advantages of cargodist without being limited by a prechosen destination of your cargos. Meaning YOU will decide where the cargo have to be delivered. You ll be still able to share production for different destination, but You will have to balance the deliveries, cargodist wont.

Now an other key element to your problem is the "effect of distance on demand" setting : if you set it to 100% it will send more cargo to the farther destination avalaibles than to closer ones (that s a part of your problem on your savegame). Setting it to 0% will allow a more equal distribution of the cargos with specific destination to each destination avalaible. This setting of course only have effect on symetric and asymetric, since manual doesn t set a specific destination.

Then last but not least, you have to give time for the effect to change ingame (the linkgraph settings need to be calculated)... and when the linkgraph recalculation interval is setted to 16days, with a daylenght factor30... you probably have to wait quite a long time before seing changes in game. (especially when you delete an allready existing link, this can take years sometime)

I hope by sharing what i (believe to) know (is true), you can now find the right setting you need for your savegame, and all your future games.
(different setting could work, so it s up to you to decide, and also i m not telling you directly what to do cause it s about teaching the fisherman to fish)

Cheers

[ChillCore]

The only modification I need is not important to have risk of 'damage' the save imo. It's only to add FISH ships that, for error, i not added it before and now it no appears in my game :-/

Not so safe as you might think.
As soon as you click the apply changes button the vehicle ID's will be altered even if you "only" add FISH.
IIRC FISH also removes the default vehicles in addition of adding its own.

- In the best case running costs wil be messed up.
- If you are less lucky then you will not be able to refit to certain cargos.
- If you are realy unlucky your game will crash when trying to buy a (now invalid) ship (or an AI does).

Can you say me where you seen the steps to change it ingame? I don't find them.

I have sent you a pm that explains how to do it ... it has already been mentioned way too many times to post it again.
I have checked the problems section and on the frst page there are at least three topics about changing GRFs ... ingame. IIRC two of them mention what I have PMd you.

Try, if you want to experience these problems for yourself but do make a backup of your game.
As soon as you hit the apply changes button it can not be reverted ... unless you load your backup.

... CargoDist explanation ...

Most is true ... except that the linkgraph recalculation now ignores the daylength factor.
I should still change the gui in the advanced setting to mention "* 74 ticks" instead of "days" thank you for pointing that out.

1) Sorry about that, my bad, you're right, it does make sense, then, after all. Although, the every things costs are still the same so it becomes hard! I hadn't figured that before... Hm...

What costs are you refering too? Knowing that might make it easier to find and fix if needed.

2) I never changed anything in the advanced settings, and I don't even know what it was! So when you asked me about the asymetric stuff, pfew, I was lost! I changed it, it did not solve the problem, nor setting the Cargo Handling at OFF! And now I tried manual for the Other cargo distribution and saw it did not change anything, I kind of forgot if it was previously set at asymetric or symetric! So I don't know what to put back bah, anyway...

IIRC, the default values for distribution are.
passengers and mail: symmetric
All the rest: assymetric

As for your problem ... romazoon gave a nice description of CargoDist but that will not solve your problem ...

[ignore please]
Opening the vehicle orders for vehicle 1 and clicking the skip button once will. When your vehicle comes back to the oil wells it wll load normally.
This issue is unrelated to CargoDist and can happen in clean trunk as well.
It is caused by Advanced Settings->station->cargo handling->"Deliver cargo only to a station when there is a demand" being on.

This shows a problem exist with Cargodist where cargo is already routed by CargoDist but the vehicle will not load untill the trip has been made at least once.
Please do not go reporting this to fonso yet as I do not yet know if this can be reproduced with more recent versions of CargoDist than the version included in my patchpack. It should be easy to test.
[/ignore please]

EDIT: see [ignore]
Hmm I just reloaded the game and pressed fast forward. the train starts loading at around March 6th, no clicking buttons needed ... also when you make the vehicle skip the first order it starts loading the 6th ...

3) Ok, only semesters, I did not know, thank you!

Problem solved, Okidoki

4) No subsidies whatsoever proposed so far, that's sad! Doesn't help my economy!

I might have a looksie to ignore the daylength factor here later on ...

[oberhümer]

I found a weird bug with traffic lights.
The attached save is 64x64, but was running extremely slow, so I thought it might be the traffic lights. I start removing them... guess what? Whenever I remove one, another pops up behind it, and even on straight road sections! Try for yourself, NewGRFs are all on Bananas.

To compare, I've put up the same thing after removing all those invisible traffic lights.

[romazoon]

"Deliver cargo only to a station when there is a demand" being on.

Oups my bad, should have looked at that too (you were even reffering to it in a quite recent post)

And well what i explained also could solve the problem too (setting other cargo to manual should work since their is no more destination and it was indeed working when i tried, without changing the setting your telling) ,

but i must say your solution have the advantage to not require the player to add a leave empty order to the vehicule bringing cargo into a hub(the case here) and allow the use of the destination...

[Eddi]

I think it has to be written like this:

Code: Select all

- if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(147))
+ if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(147) || IsSavegameVersionBefore(KEEP_COMPATIBLE_1_SV))

But I am not 100% sure ...

yes, MiniIN had similar constructs. Maybe you should re-check those.

[ChillCore]

I found a weird bug with traffic lights.
The attached save is 64x64, but was running extremely slow, so I thought it might be the traffic lights. I start removing them... guess what? Whenever I remove one, another pops up behind it, and even on straight road sections! Try for yourself, NewGRFs are all on Bananas.

To compare, I've put up the same thing after removing all those invisible traffic lights.

Weird indeed ... not sure what triggers this and I never saw this before. Could it be related to your ingame changing of GRFs perhaps ...

Indeed to many signals in one consist slow down the game extremely ... as mentioned in the trafficlights patch thread and in the advanced settings too ...

The ogfx-industries and opengfx+trees in your savegame are reported as "unknown content" when I try to get them from bananas.

"Deliver cargo only to a station when there is a demand" being on.

Oups my bad, should have looked at that too (you were even reffering to it in a quite recent post)

And well what i explained also could solve the problem too (setting other cargo to manual should work since their is no more destination and it was indeed working when i tried, without changing the setting your telling) ,

but i must say your solution have the advantage to not require the player to add a leave empty order to the vehicule bringing cargo into a hub(the case here) and allow the use of the destination...

You are right that one not needs to skip orders ... in fact Hem can just do nothing but wait a little and his savegame should work ...
I edited my post just before you posted ...

I think it has to be written like this:

Code: Select all

- if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(147))
+ if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(147) || IsSavegameVersionBefore(KEEP_COMPATIBLE_1_SV))

But I am not 100% sure ...

yes, MiniIN had similar constructs. Maybe you should re-check those.

Re-checking might be a good idea ... before taking more drastic measures.
I am a little bit more comfortable with OpenTTD internals then I was before ... just a little bit though.

[Wasila]

What is your implementation of Cargodist in relation to one-way passenger routes? I have transfer and leave empty orders on (to funnel passengers into my rail network), but a lot of passengers in the train station are waiting to leave for the bus stop, even though no passengers are picked up for that route. The link graph should have updated by now but hasn't -- how long do routes stay on before being removed? Or can Cargodist not handle these orders at all?

[ChillCore]

What is your implementation of Cargodist in relation to one-way passenger routes? I have transfer and leave empty orders on (to funnel passengers into my rail network), but a lot of passengers in the train station are waiting to leave for the bus stop, even though no passengers are picked up for that route.

Without savegame I can only guess what happens.
Also to answer your question what happens when using transfer and leave empty orders I would have to play a game with orders like that ... the point of CargoDist is that you let CargoDist handle these things and the player does no longer have to worry about those things.
In my CargoDist games I only tell my vehicles where to go and that is it, I do not use load/unload/transfer orders ... whatsoever.

The link graph should have updated by now but hasn't -- how long do routes stay on before being removed? Or can Cargodist not handle these orders at all?

Open the smallmap and look at the capacity of the linkgraphs. When you stop using a route the capacity for that route will become smaller over time. when the capacity will finally have been reduced to zero the link will dissapear.

Note:
The above is no longer valid for the official version of CargoDist, this method has changed in the most recent version ... see the CargoDist thread.
I will update soon ...

[oberhümer]

Weird indeed ... not sure what triggers this and I never saw this before. Could it be related to your ingame changing of GRFs perhaps ...

Whoops, didn't notice that... I don't see how it could be related though.

Well, I guess I'll just report if I see it again in a stably played game (not a lot of those with me though ).

[Hem]

Thank you Romazoon for your explanations, although... I'm not sure I got it all. I get the theory, I mean, but I think I would have liked some examples to explain it more concretely. Especially since you're trying to explain these things to me as if I already knew what we're talking about... but I don't! I don't even know what "cargodist" is and you say now I'll know more about changing my settings, but I never did, ever, and I hope I never will have to thanks anyway

ChillCore, thanks a lot again for everything. For question 1), I meant that I had realized the game then becomes harder if I only make myself 200$ with a cargo ride instead of the normal 8000$ one (which is obvious, if only two days elapsed in the game instead of say 2 weeks in the original unmodified game - that I did get) AND that I still have to pay 30.000$ for my train! I just realized that so there's no bug, don't worry, just a new strategy I have to think of, I guess!

For my train problem, I'm sorry, maybe I don't get something right, but I think we're not done. I loaded again the savegame I sent, the 26th of February, and wether I skip one go for the train and make it come back again, or wether I do the little change you recommended in your "ignore edit", nothing will do. I'm sorry, but I still have these hundreds of thousands of liters of oil waiting at the station, and these trains #1 and #4 waiting at respectively 0% and 70%, without picking anything, or at least, if not picking anything from the cargos brought from other stations by other trains, picking from time to time the oil brought by the wells right there, but that's all. Still stuck Are you sure we got the same savegame, or the same settings?

For the question 4), yes, a big "pretty pretty please" on that matter

Now I'll go write that big spam-mail I promised to romazoon Bye!

[ChillCore]

Weird indeed ... not sure what triggers this and I never saw this before. Could it be related to your ingame changing of GRFs perhaps ...

Whoops, didn't notice that... I don't see how it could be related though.

I noticed when typing "gamelog" in the console...
There is openttd.grf, flat_blacktiles.grf, copypaste.grf, trafficlights.grf ... they are loaded statically but still GRFs ... I asume these get an ID too which can be messed up somehow.

Well, I guess I'll just report if I see it again in a stably played game (not a lot of those with me though ).

It would be nice if you could reproduce that.
When I used the querry tool on the tiles where the signals appear as by magic I noticed that they are all roadtiles with trafficlights.
The thing that puzzles me is how you managed to get them in that state when they are not crossings ... once there is a trafficlight on a crossing it should not be possible to remove the crossings without first removing the trafficlights that are on it.

I don't even know what "cargodist" is

Maybe you should take a little time to follow the links in the first posts and read the first few post of each thread.
Most of those threads have a litle explanation there of what each patch does and how to use it.
Note that many of them have been altered or extended by me so please ask questions you may have here.

For my train problem, I'm sorry, maybe I don't get something right, but I think we're not done.
...
Are you sure we got the same savegame, or the same settings?

I am pretty sure that we are loading the same savegame ... I only have one named HeMuX on my pc.
Also most settings are stored in the savegame, so the settings should be the same.
I have attached two screenshots, one is where train 1 starts loading the 6th of March and the second is where rain 4 leaves the station with a full load the 15th of the same month. I did not do anything but load your savegame and wait a bit ...
If you want, as an additional test, post your config file and I will try your savegame in the same windows build you are using with your configuration.

For the question 4), yes, a big "pretty pretty please" on that matter

I'll have a looksie to find the sweet spot soonish, lots of things to do already...

Now I'll go write that big spam-mail I promised to romazoon Bye!

yeah, it is annoying to lose a big post ... I had that happen to me also a few times.
Now, whenever I am about to submit a long post I first copy it in my texteditor so if it gets lost somehow I can just paste it in the edit box ...