FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

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andythenorth
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by andythenorth »

Update on the sand quarry. Been working on a conveyor system that can be reused at multiple mining industries.

This is a mockup to test the conveyor theory. For those who know, the building on the left will be the screen house, the one to the right will be redrawn as a crusher. You'll see a crushing circuit* and stockpile conveyors. The input conveyor should go to the crusher though. Am I right? And how do I learn all this stuff just to push pixels? :P

* Far as I can work out, a sand quarry would need a washing circuit, not a crusher, but I need to keep this all a bit generic to reuse at other types of mine and quarries.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by DanMacK »

Looking awesome guys! love the progress and keep it up!

Re: ther reseach and learning, it comes with the territiry. I can't tell you how much I've learned about Finnish Railways and other countries lines by wither playing games or researching for drawing. It's an enjoyable sideline of the TTD drawing process IMO
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by Jim Yates »

Looks good, I think you've got the just of it... like you said, sand and gravel operations dont need a crushing circuit.

Two sites which contain A LOT of useful information are:

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/planning4minerals/Resources_23.htm
http://www.goodquarry.com/article.aspx? ... navid=19#e

For operations other than sand and gravel, blasted rock is typically hauled from the blast site by off-road trucks to the primary crusher (a screen ["grizzly"] prevents really huge boulders from entering). The material then goes through screening, secondary crushing, more screening, washing etc. It varies from quarry to quarry, but the two websites have neat animations which help.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by andythenorth »

Quarry with conveyors painted. Still need to add some dirt/noise to the building texture.
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A quarry with lots of conveyors? ...ok:
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by cmoiromain »

Looks pretty good. You just forgot to remove a brown line from the tractors.

Then I have a few questions:
Will the two tractors remain there? I think you said some time ago that there would only be one of them, but I'm too lazy to check, and since all the previews you have shown us have them both, I was wondering if both would stay. If it is the case, then maybe you could have one rotated a little (at least before they ever get animated, which would be really neat!).
Then to the conveyors: could you show us the actual configurations they are going to be in? ATM there are some leading to nowhere, which looks kind of weird...
One last remark, as someone mentionned earlier, the shore looks too straight, too square IMO... You should tweak that a little, add a few pixels at places to make it look more natural.

Looking forward to the next industry! Keep up the good work!
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by Jim Yates »

I think the grey line is meant to be there, as its part of a dragline. I think? :)

I guess the conveyors which end mid-air will eventually have a pile of sand/minerals beneath them (either representing live stockpiles for the production process, or the finished product itself).
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by andythenorth »

Jim Yates wrote:I think the grey line is meant to be there, as its part of a dragline. I think? :)
Well it's a grab bucket, but with a dragline-style control line fitted which allows the operator to retrieve/cast the grab (I've seen it done), but probably serves more to control bucket swing on the rotation. I might cut it out if it looks weird.

Have added some dirt noise to the buildings and shadows under them. Just a bit of greeble left to add, walkways and suchlike. The default layout for a small quarry would be something like this, but the tiles and conveyors would join better. I might ditch the long conveyor and have dump trucks to haul sand to the washing plant. It should all work out nicely.
Bigger quarries would be...bigger :)
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by Coxx »

http://www.rohrcorp.com/dredges_landbas ... ladder.htm

I assume the rectangular shape of the lake here is due this particular dregging mashine advertised here, usually I guess the shape would be more irregular. Much harder to draw I guess.

Looking at the foundry-link it´s amazing how many industries are drawn yet. And they are looking so good!

Please don´t get me wrong, I love the artwork there, and it is amazing to see the progress off the dedicated and determinant work on that project.
Apart from the mockups presented in this threat it´s rather difficult to tell about the actual size of the FIRS industries. But judging from the FIRS building/HEQS vehicle and HEQS vehicle/other building, train etc.-ratio I feel they could be a little bit bigger (some 5-10%).
Right now the graphics contain a lot of free space between the buildings (dificult to draw, I would imagine), maybe the buildings could extend just to the edges. I don´t think the place have to be bigger but the buildings could be denser, higher, using the space better, all in all they should feel bigger. I also got that impression from that image of a old add from some glassworks(?) posted earlier. Well, I admit these are really big ones but do you see what I mean?
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Take the brewery as an example: It´s drawn really nicely, no doubt about that. But unless you switch to transparent mode, you will have a hard time finding it in a somewhat bigger town. Giving them something special to make clear it´s an industry, as Xavius has mentioned before, would be a good idea, I would opt for some sort of addvertisement. I think all the industries should also have some limits (like fences, walls, a gate to it etc.). I don´t get why there is a gap between the main building and the boilerhouse, btw the chimney should be higher I think.
Talking about the size I think about all the lorrys or traincars filled with the monthly production of this brewery and ask myself: where do they store it?
(it´s the opposite with the ECS vec plant: what? just xyz cars a mont h? hand crafted custom cars or what?)

So, as said before, please don´t get me wrong, but for a serious high production industry some of the graphics don´t look so convincing in that particular aspect.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by andythenorth »

Coxx wrote:http://www.rohrcorp.com/dredges_landbas ... ladder.htm
I assume the rectangular shape of the lake here is due this particular dregging mashine advertised here, usually I guess the shape would be more irregular. Much harder to draw I guess.
Yes on both counts. I started drawing an irregular shaped lake and it just didn't look right. Too much work for too little benefit making it look good. Also, water in OpenTTD has regular edges (on the isometric grid), it's got to fit the world style.
I would like to draw that bucket dredging machine.
Apart from the mockups presented in this threat it´s rather difficult to tell about the actual size of the FIRS industries. But judging from the FIRS building/HEQS vehicle and HEQS vehicle/other building, train etc.-ratio I feel they could be a little bit bigger (some 5-10%)....[...snip...]maybe the buildings could extend just to the edges
Some industries will have very large overall footprints due to repeating multiple buildings. We took a decision early on not to run buildings to the very edge of the tile, it's not original TTD style, and doesn't look so good (it's been done with some grf sets, so we did a few tests).
Take the brewery as an example[...snip...]unless you switch to transparent mode, you will have a hard time finding it in a somewhat bigger town.
Agreed, I'll think about this as a problem.
I don´t get why there is a gap between the main building and the boilerhouse
It can be built with a road or rail line (or canal) running through it. It also helps clearly show the individual modules that make up the industry (these can be rearranged to make different layouts).
Talking about the size I think about all the lorrys or traincars filled with the monthly production of this brewery and ask myself: where do they store it?
Fair point, but it's scaled and based on a real brewery. If we want to look at real life, they probably solved the problem by not storing much beer - delivering it often. If we want to look at game world, well how do all those vehicles fit in a single tile depot? :)
Meanwhile, if you want more storage, add warehouses as station tiles (using ISR). I'm deliberately trying not to replicate things that are provided by ISR. Industries will mostly feature tiles for raw material storage, but not much for finished goods, as the ISR station set can do that.
So, as said before, please don´t get me wrong, but for a serious high production industry some of the graphics don´t look so convincing in that particular aspect.
Most of them can have the buildings repeated to make a larger industry - layouts at random. We *may* relate the size of the industry to its maximum production limit (no promises). One constraint is that we have to actually fit the industries on the map (around other objects, and limited by underlying hills etc.)

cheers,

Andy
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by Eddi »

andythenorth wrote:One constraint is that we have to actually fit the industries on the map [...] limited by underlying hills
be aware that OpenTTD has the ability to flatten the landscape for industries that do not require a custom shape.

while this facilitates placement of industries, it can lead to aestetical problems. this is especially apparent with large but irregular footprint industries, e.g. the PBI oil wells.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by andythenorth »

Eddi wrote:
andythenorth wrote:One constraint is that we have to actually fit the industries on the map [...] limited by underlying hills
be aware that OpenTTD has the ability to flatten the landscape for industries that do not require a custom shape.
I know it's possible, I don't know how yet it is implemented and how it actually works in practice (when generating a map for example), but it's on my list of things to learn :)

I do know that, for example, on a mountainous map, lowering/raising a hill will sometimes not be possible due to the presence of a transmitter, industry or other immovable object nearby. So I am hopeful about landscape flattening, but not relying on it to solve the problem of industry placement :)

What I don't want is a massive wait time when generating a game due to OTTD trying to place industries!
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by Coxx »

andythenorth wrote:...it's scaled and based on a real brewery.
No doubt about that.
I had a look on the graphics and on lot of other graphics too. And than again I had a look on the FIRS graphics. (repetitive pattern). Most other buildings seem to have the same he scale. Well, this shouldn´t have come as a suprise to me. :roll:
So forget about the draw to the edges, storaging and everything. The size of the layouts is ok (exept the waste collector), I just felt some of the industries don´t look that massive in comparsion to the trains (all the other stuff) as I would have imagined them. But it´s hard to tell from these few screenies. This is, of course, just my personal opinion.
Sorry for bothering, I just thought it´s better to tell before all 50 industries are drawn. :lol:
andythenorth wrote:Quote:
I don´t get why there is a gap between the main building and the boilerhouse

It can be built with a road or rail line (or canal) running through it. It also helps clearly show the individual modules that make up the industry (these can be rearranged to make different layouts).


I got what the gap is for, but between main building and boiler house? Seems strange to me.
andythenorth wrote:Also, water in OpenTTD has regular edges (on the isometric grid), it's got to fit the world style.
I would like to draw that bucket dredging machine.
I knew it! You wouldn´t let this oportunity slip away, cool! :D

With the available grf´s one can play OTTD some 200 (game) years, in which some industrial revolutions took place. So I imagine it´s very difficult to choose a apropriate industry layout which cover most of that time. You doing a fine job.

Btw are there plans how to shape the pre 1920 industry?
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by Eddi »

i don't know, but it looks somewhat out of proportion... (too high)
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by Coxx »

It´s a nice building.
I wouldn´t say it´s too high. If anything it´s a bit to long. Might looking better with an vertical accent on the gable sections of the facade. (Can´t explain properly, like that: I___I_I___I_I___I , but you will probably get what I mean)
The roof have an odd shape, it reflects the original shape but it look wrong somehow in the graphic.
The building seems to have an backyard with a very nice watertower, would be a nice addition so maybe include the backyard as well.

I got an idea how to show it´s an industrie building. What about having some bits and bobs of a special colour on every industry (like the companycolour)? One for each string, yellow for food (-related stuff), red for coal/ore and so on.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by andythenorth »

@ Coxx, re: the furniture factory, I came to roughly the same conclusions this morning. I've redrawn the gables already, and I think your suggestion about lining the facade up with the gables is correct. I may also make the building shorter. The water tower etc will be on additional tile(s) to allow for layout variations.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set

Post by cmoiromain »

I think what makes it look weird is that it is too thin compared to the height... Usually such long buildings are lower, or wider. I personally would have made it a tile and a half long.
Another thing, one of the walls is totally empty, whilst the other is filled with decorations. It feels a little unbalanced to me.
Last thing, maybe you should try adding something on the roof, either a couple of chimneys or some dormers.
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