This is a Circle Line train to... Hammersmith

[JamieLei]

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In addition to what's said in the article, this has actually been on the cards for many years now, and the Hammersmith and City line could really do with some capacity improvements with the increased number of people using Wood Land for Westfield shopping centre (trains are always pretty packed when I go).

Any comments?

[Kevo00]

I think its a good idea - anything that can improve the present irregular and unreliable services on the sub-surface lines has to be applauded! Probably shouldn't be called the circle any longer though!

Of course this decision is bound to lead to a flurry of enthusiasts overloading the circle on the last day of full circular operation.

[andysine]

Interesting stuff. Didn't realise it was possible for a train to cause it's own delays in the current system!

I suppose now its not going to be quite as easy (or dare I say, as much fun) to travel the 'wrong' way round the Circle line now?!

[JamieLei]

It'll put a stop to the Circle Line parties - when they finally reach the buffer at Edgware Road or Hammersmith. Well actually it was Boris that stopped them

I think it's a great idea - the inconvenience for the number of people having to use the footbridge will probably be compensating by the many more people who no longer have to wait 15 mins for Circle Line trains

The problem is that if the Circle Line trains run at 5 min headways, and a train is delayed by 6 mins, it will actually delay itself once the ripple has passed through!

[Kevo00]

The only really worrying thing might be if the H&C can't take the increased frequency, but I'm sure they'll have plans in hand to sort it out.

More important, time for Tfl to finish the tiling at certain stations and get the sub-surface network's reliability up in general.

[Griff]

I wonder then if they still intend to go ahead with the idea of extending Met running to Barking

[JamieLei]

Hmmm - although the Met trains would have comparatively lower density seating than the District trains. I think it's still planned for some form of transverse seating on them

[Ameecher]

I suppose this extension is possible in the meantime due to having a few spare bits of stock kicking around what with the ELL stock no longer needed on the ELL.

[JamieLei]

The East London Line was served by five 4-car trains. I doubt that 2.5 additional trains would be enough to cover the Met to Barking!

[Ameecher]

Ok then smart arse, where is this stock coming from to operate it as this will obviously need more stock that to my knowledge isn't exactly kicking around.

[Kevo00]

I have thought that they might be as well just operating the H&C and Circle as one, and extend the Met through to Barking, except that it would probably expose the met out to Buckinghamshire to more delays as an incident at Barons Court or somewhere on the District would delay trains up the Barking end. Not sure how many trains they would need to extend this service, but it is probably not many, as the present H&C service frequency to Barking is quite light - about every third train on the line seems to be an H&C - perhaps it is as little as 4 or 6 an hour off peak. Perhaps this proposal is there once they introduce the new sub-surface S stock, as I understand even the trains for the Met are to have parallel seating rather than the facing type. I understand travellers on the Met aren't best pleased about this, even though the A stock is the oldest on the network. Still they pay more than anyone else does on the system for the privilege of travelling in from Zone Z, which I understand is almost near Carlisle, so maybe they should be entitled to a more comfortable seat than anyone else.

Thinking of the ELL, I really miss it, such a convenient little line when I used to live in Rotherhithe. Actually even now in Stepney Green I could use it, but they haven't arranged any substitute transport across the river. Don't know why they couldn't have done a ferry. But it was a great line, comfy seats in the A stock, and quiet a lot of the time, with some unusual stations, even if the services weren't that frequent - though that added to the charm. Still the overground project is a great idea, and should draw more passengers to the line when its finished, so onwards and upwards.

[JamieLei]

Hmm, but the look of it though, it's most only a 3tph or less frequency through to Barking on the H&C at off-peak times (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... es-map.pdf) which could be covered by the 28tph District services (although a more likely some 6 tph through to Whitechapel).

Also, it appears from photos of the first completed unit (most probably a Met. since it's 8-coaches, although could be a district) that there's a mixture of transverse and longitudinal seating. Circle line stock might be all longitudinal though.

Nonetheless, it's very true that to make up for the lack of H&Cs more of the Met trains would have to be extended. Quite a few of them terminate at Baker Street I believe.

Ok then smart arse, where is this stock coming from to operate it as this will obviously need more stock that to my knowledge isn't exactly kicking around.

S-Stock of course! - there'll be quite a few of them around by December

Also the extra Circle line units will be covered using using the C-Stock trains which used to go to Barking/Whitechapel but now don't

[JamieLei]

Just an update - the "teacup" combined Circle/Hammersmith service is currently under trial this weekend. I'll try and read up and see how it went - it would be nice to have a regular Circle line service for once - too many times I've been waiting for at least 15 mins for a Circle Line train (with headways meant to be every 10 mins).

[SHADOW-XIII]

Am not sure, Hammersmith to Paddington is really quite dead service some days/times.

My opinion wouldn't it be better to make more lasso endings ?
Put some trains into Earl's Court, Whitechapel and Hammersmith

3 lasso endings like that could even lead to Hammsmith & City line removal and unify it under Circle line (of course the missing Whitechapel-Barking H&C would be service by District Line anyway) but would save lot of space on the tracks and give quick backward service (in case of Whitechapel/Earl's Court) if needed without clogging 1 platform stations on the line.

[Kevo00]

More Lasso endings seems a good idea to me - I'm pretty sure the numbers travelling from east of Aldgate East to the Hammersmith branch, and vice versa must be pretty low. Anything that can speed up the tube is good - sometimes I feel like I live on the tube (non Londoners, believe me that is not as good as it sounds).

[SHADOW-XIII]

Besides Whitechapel Lasso would be awesome idea for East London interchange ones it will open!

[JamieLei]

I was under the impression that the Metropolitan was going to be reextended to Barking to compensate for the withdrawal of the H&C?

[SHADOW-XIII]

That's pointless, why to Barking?? it's way too far and Metropolitan is long enough.
I think it should be made even shorter not to clogg the City. Imho Baker Street should be the terminating station for Metropolitan leaving city with (new)Circle Line only (read later below). Yes, that means more changing for people but that also means less different tubes there, more fast & efficent service by 1 line.

There is no need for any line up to Barking since we have District Line there, Whitechapel is perfectly enough with extra 2 platforms for turning back. Giving there Circle Line lasso (for "via Kings Cross") will connect whole east London part with King Cross/Liverpool Station/Moorgate/Paddington etc.

And since you don't pay extra when you change the tube line (like in some countries/cities) there is no need for occasional extra service as far as Barking. District Line is way enough, what I would do then is to put extra trains for Upminster/Barking/Plaistow to Whitechapel/Tower Bridge on rush hours. Would minimize unnecesary confusion, improve transport times and create strong and fairly big interchange point at Whitechapel - though I am unsure if Whitechapel station (District Line) is ready for that crowd, might be needed to open/extend more entry/exit ways (as far as I know west overpass is used for maintanance access, that could be changed to normal overpass)

[Kevo00]

There is no need for any line up to Barking since we have District Line there, Whitechapel is perfectly enough with extra 2 platforms for turning back. Giving there Circle Line lasso (for "via Kings Cross") will connect whole east London part with King Cross/Liverpool Station/Moorgate/Paddington etc.

And since you don't pay extra when you change the tube line (like in some countries/cities) there is no need for occasional extra service as far as Barking. District Line is way enough, what I would do then is to put extra trains for Upminster/Barking/Plaistow to Whitechapel/Tower Bridge on rush hours. Would minimize unnecesary confusion, improve transport times and create strong and fairly big interchange point at Whitechapel - though I am unsure if Whitechapel station (District Line) is ready for that crowd, might be needed to open/extend more entry/exit ways (as far as I know west overpass is used for maintanance access, that could be changed to normal overpass)

This suggests you have never tried to change from a District train to a Hammersmith one at Aldgate East while waiting for the driver to have a cup of tea before reversing at Whitechapel! Seriously, there is no way Whitechapel as it stands could deal with huge loads changing trains there - if ever a station on the network was in need of a makeover, it is Whitechapel. Only one entrance/exit for a big station, and one overpass which is right at the end of the platforms so necessitating a huge delay at weekends when the H&C turns at Whitechapel due to engineering and people have to go all the way across from the District to get an onward train. Tower Hill meanwhile is unusuable as a turning station for trains running westward, as to my knowledge it lacks any turnaround siding facing that way.

Ideally I'd like to see the whole area remodelled with the Aldgate triangle given dive-unders (sadly the cost is no doubt prohibitive) and perhaps the badly sited Aldgate station moved, with the Met either removed from the circle, ran to Whitechapel or Barking or made a lasso. Apart from the trains the physical infra on a lot of the sub-surface needs a lot of TLC, so a complete re-signalling would be a good idea too, perhaps with moving block signalling so trains can enter stations when one has just left. Stations need some new facilities - proper train info signs at each would help (Whitechapel, Aldgate East and Tower Hill among others currently lack these) At the moment journey times are far too inconsistent for my liking - my usual journey from Stepney Green to Temple can take anything from 15 mins to half an hour, and you can spend ages waiting in the tunnels. Today I was even on a district train which was overtaken by an H&C at Whitechapel - never seen that before!

Anyway next week I'm moving to Tooting Bec, so you can hear me complain about somewhere new instead.

[JamieLei]

Actually Tower Hill has 3 platforms - two westward and one eastward. Quite a few Districts turn there, and coming down the station there's a big sign that indicates whether the next train out will be from the empty platform on the left (more likely) or the standing train on the right. Extending some Met trains to Barking (such as 4tph) might be actually a good idea since the Met trains are 8-cars (can utilise the entire length of the platform) and provides more frequent journeys into the city. I believe the current H&C to Barking is 2/3tph.