Do you have problems with ECS vectors? Look here!

[VitCons]

Made some tests with v4 vectors and have question (built 11838 + basic4+ town4 + machinery4)..
1. On closing there are no messages about it.
>After testing for a long period of time I noted. The few first several years, the message of closing the industry does not appears.
2. I dont know why but the transportation rating and the station rating now OK, easily possible to reach 75% THANKS a lot
3. Not very clear with Power Plant.. how do you calculate the MGw? What is the logic of this righ now. I'm asking because it has a very low rating (and closed ofter several years) even when I have a very good logistics and transportation huge amount of coal to it.. not clear.
4. cool new graphic of Coal Mine
5. What does it mean "Remain: 0 month (0-undef)"?
6. Is it possible to make a note for a mandatory cargos which have to be provided to the station in the Industry window? I mean right now you can see the message
"Cargo waiting to be processed:
XX vehicles" =>
""Cargo waiting to be processed:
XX vehicles (mandatory)"
later on when all the industries updated you can easily to find what you must! provide to the factory and what is supported! cargos.
7. My sugestion: even with solved rating problem you can see a lot of closing issues and significantly decreasing the number of industries in time. I think if I start game whith some number of industries (e.g. Low) then it means I want to have such quantity of industries on the map, at least not less on start. It meas if the system closes somthing, it should open a new industry (1:1). Right now if you do nothing for a long time the total amount of industries is going to the number of cargos (because of the last industry protection). If I've generated 200 industries in 100 years there will be only 20 .
8. Is the size of factories/raw industries limited somehow and vary across the map? I mean if you look to the cars, there is a ford motors who produces a loooooot of cars which cannot be comparable to the lamborghini cars production. Even if you can transport every item of it and reach transported rating = 100% for it, there should not be the same productivity levels (the same opportunity for grow). The factories should be initially internaly limited to produce not much then XXXX items of goods. The same for beer

[George]

Made some tests with v4 vectors and have question (built 11838 + basic4+ town4 + machinery4)..
1. On closing there are no messages about it.
>After testing for a long period of time I noted. The few first several years, the message of closing the industry does not appears.

Every industry has it's closure protection period. The smallest one is 5 for industries from map generator or SE, and 2 years for whose, which were placed in game. So, you do not get a message because no industry attempts to close down.

2. I dont know why but the transportation rating and the station rating now OK, easily possible to reach 75% THANKS a lot

I did not anything to change it

3. Not very clear with Power Plant.. how do you calculate the MGw?

1 ton of coal processed is 7.5 MW/h, 1000 litres of oil are 10.3 MW/h

What is the logic of this righ now. I'm asking because it has a very low rating (and closed ofter several years) even when I have a very good logistics and transportation huge amount of coal to it.. not clear.

Strange. It should not close if it generates above 1024 MW/h a month.

4. cool new graphic of Coal Mine

By Zimmlock. Thank you, Zimmlock!

5. What does it mean "Remain: 0 month (0-undef)"?

Industry will close in specified number of months. Value 0 means unknown. Other values mean remaining life in months (unless you provide a good service, then the value will change to 0 and industry will not close).

6. Is it possible to make a note for a mandatory cargos which have to be provided to the station in the Industry window? I mean right now you can see the message
"Cargo waiting to be processed:
XX vehicles" =>
""Cargo waiting to be processed:
XX vehicles (mandatory)"
later on when all the industries updated you can easily to find what you must! provide to the factory and what is supported! cargos.

I think Wiki is a better place for this isn't it?

7. My sugestion: even with solved rating problem you can see a lot of closing issues and significantly decreasing the number of industries in time. I think if I start game whith some number of industries (e.g. Low) then it means I want to have such quantity of industries on the map, at least not less on start. It meas if the system closes somthing, it should open a new industry (1:1).

Unfortunately, there is no callback to force new industry. The only thing I can change is property 18 - new industry probability (current values are 1-3). Suggest your values.

Right now if you do nothing for a long time the total amount of industries is going to the number of cargos (because of the last industry protection). If I've generated 200 industries in 100 years there will be only 20 .

That was intended, and not in 100 years, but in about 25 years. That was the goal. If the player can't protect industries from closure - he has to pay for new ones to appear.

8. Is the size of factories/raw industries limited somehow and vary across the map? I mean if you look to the cars, there is a ford motors who produces a loooooot of cars which cannot be comparable to the lamborghini cars production. Even if you can transport every item of it and reach transported rating = 100% for it, there should not be the same productivity levels (the same opportunity for grow). The factories should be initially internaly limited to produce not much then XXXX items of goods. The same for beer

That is in already. Look at tourists centres for example. Also there is a special layout for coal mine. It is possible to have it for other industries too. All you need is
a) for industries with single graphics (like printing works, tourists centres, vehicles factory, brewery) - to provide new graphics and I will code it as alternative one.
b) for industries with assembled graphics (like coal mine, power plant, factory, steel mill, tinning factory) - to provide a new layout and I will code it with new behaviour. You can assemble it with larger or smaller number of parts. You can even provide more graphics and have more variety for them.

[dtb1322]

I have searched to find the answer but was not successful. sorry if this has been posted elsewhere or if the question makes me look like a noob, but if you have all seven ECS vectors loaded, what train and or road vehicle set will handle all the new cargoes? thanks

[Rainer]

Hi dtb1322,

I have searched to find the answer but was not successful. sorry if this has been posted elsewhere or if the question makes me look like a noob, but if you have all seven ECS vectors loaded, what train and or road vehicle set will handle all the new cargoes? thanks

Until now I have used the UK Renewal Set, the North American Renewal Set and the DBSet XL with ECS Extension; all available via http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/

cu
Rainer

[Gonozal_VIII]

the serbian rail set, both standard and narrow gauge have the best support for all ecs vectors at once imho

[dtb1322]

Thank you Rainer and Gonozal_VIII. I am currently using the UK renewal set and enjoying the new twists. However, I seem to have hit another snag...

How about the fish? What ships grf will harvest the fish? I am using newshipsw.grf and it's not refittable for fish. Any ideas?

[dtb1322]

Ok, now I have had some time to experiment with the Agricultural vector and I have found that there is only one grf for ships (newshipsw.grf) that has a ship that can be refitted for fish. However there are two cargoes created by the Ag Vector that this ship grf can not handle and they are wool and oil seeds.

Likewise, I have found that there is only one truck grf that can be refitted for the Agricultural vector (4LVW.grf).

I can also confirm that the following rail sets do handle all new cargoes created by the Agricultural vector (North American Renewal set, UK Renewal Set and the Serbian Rail set).

[VitCons]

I dont like the snowline changing the way it is implemented (summer - everything is green, winter - everything in white), too big difference.
Is it possible to make a parameter which can vary the low and high levels for snowline in summer and winter. I like to have a real looking mountans with snow in almost any time of the year, and green lanes at the same time, but with a snowline depending upon the season. Is it hard to implement?
Is it possible to enable snow in temperate somehow?

I also have idea on parameter which can vary the closure likelyhood. Is it possible to implement?

[OzTrans]

I dont like the snowline changing the way it is implemented (summer - everything is green, winter - everything in white), too big difference. ...

In ECS turn it off; i.e. in ECSTown[w].grf set parameter 2 to '1'.

Then, if you use any of the following sets :

. Canadian Stations Set
. North American Cities Set
. North American Roads Set

you can have variable snowlines in both temperate (TTDPatch only) and arctic (TTDPatch and OpenTTD). There are 4 scenarios to choose from, see guide(s) for details.

Looking for these sets, they are ...

[VitCons]

I'm currently playing with ECS, with the Wood & Basic Vector, and of course the vehicles and town vector. Everything was fine, i started transporting wood, but now somehow my forests keep shutting down, only 3 are left, and i may not even prospect new ones. The map is rather empty, so i guess that would not be a problem... I can prospect Sand Pits and all other industries, but no forests... And Forests even shut down if i transport them with 70% or so... That kind of screws up my game, as then my glass is not needed in my furniture factory anymore and so on...

http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... CSWVForest
Does it answer your questions?
Forests can close down only from very low production level or when they are in towns. You can't do anything with the later, but all you need to fix the former is to transport 75% of wood.

Dear George, I will be litte bit direc here sorry for that, but I want to show you the high level picture we got with ECS, I mean closures problem.
There are several forum threads where a lot of people do have problems with this closures (for instance here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... &start=620, here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=34758 )
I even know the guy who decided to make a new patch for not closing down industries (I'm not agree with that, but I realy will be the 1st patch user if the situation will not change).

The situation is very simple: Why the industry should close if zillions of trains (trucks, whataver) are ready to serve the station near the industry and does it best, and the station has the Very Good level. Amazes me.
Your sugesstions were:
- Build a statue (why I should build the statues? I need to build 'em everywhere just to survive? Why? I understand it increases the rating but its not a solution)
- Ask OTTD developers to made different rating calculation. Why I suppose the patch problem should not adjust the game concept
- Dont use UKRS. I like it and it is very good and realistic for me. I can have very good transportation level, its essentially enought for me to say it is not an UKRS bug.

So what do I want.
1. Make the ECS much 'side to the player face'. If I even have good rating, the industry should not close (and not increase the production). If I have very good (read above normal) it means the industry should start to increase the production (slowly if you want)
2. Or use geme year dependent calculation, for 1900 - 1950 use less stricted rules.
3. Or dependent on the game level difficulty.
3. Dont understand when to raw industry closing if have resources. How do you think if I found a gold, noone has transported it, the gold moved somewhere to another direction? Hmmm.. OK its a bit aside from my main point, but . It is good to have a close/open balance. If you play 2048x2048 map and after 20 years you have only 25 industries it is bored bucause then you have no reason to have such big map. I dont like the proposed concept to build the industries myself. I can build some, but in big map case I should buid almost every industry whis is on the map!! Does it statisfies you? Any challenge? The challenge is when you need to connect two industries located in the different corners of the 2048x2048 map

If you desagree but want to know the gamers oppinion please make a vote and see.
ECS is cool but..

[George]

I mean closures problem.

New closure mechanism was introduced to make the situation better. We can also discuss the protection values. BTW, now you need only 70% rating, not 75% to make it grow. I may agree to make 67% as the grow border (at least 67% to start slow growing).

The situation is very simple: Why the industry should close if zillions of trains (trucks, whataver) are ready to serve the station near the industry and does it best, and the station has the Very Good level. Amazes me. Your suggestions were:

Let me remind you the simple idea to increase industry rating according to station rating (at least it works in TTDP and I hope it would work in OTTD). Split your station into two and send a half of the trains/lorries to the first station, and other half to the other stations. Both station would have almost the same rating, but the industry would have the higher rating than these stations.
If this schema would work - let me know. If not - I'll decrease the minimal grow level to 67%.

1. Make the ECS much 'side to the player face'.

It is. I'm always open for suggestions. As you can remember, advanced closure was designed by a player
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=35603

2. Or use game year dependent calculation, for 1900 - 1950 use less stricted rules.

Possible

3. Or dependent on the game level difficulty.

Possible

3. Dont understand when to raw industry closing if have resources. How do you think if I found a gold, noone has transported it, the gold moved somewhere

The gold - no. But a gold mine - yes.
Sorry, but I do not want to change the concept. If the industry is not in service, it should close. Sooner or later, but it should. Otherwise the player does not need to spend money into prospecting new industries. That's too easy.

I may agree that the resource industries do not close unless they have been exhausted only in one case - when they have very small amount of resources and a player will exhaust them out in about 5 years (so the player will need to prospect new ones because the old ones are exhausted). In current terms they would have 10-20 times smaller capacity.

It is good to have a close/open balance.

It mean that a player does nothing and new industries appear just for his pleasure. Too easy. The closure chance should be higher, than prospecting chance, so the player should invest money into industries. The same way as you spend money into "fund new buildings" to make the city grow. BTW "fund new buildings" costs only 5 times lower than prospecting a new industry. That's not a big difference, but why do nobody say "it is so expensive to expand towns"?

If you play 2048x2048 map and after 20 years you have only 25 industries it is bored bucause then you have no reason to have such big map.

Belugas is working on creating a var to test map size. When it got implemented, I shall add protection age depending on map size. But that would not prevent industries from disappearing. It will only increase the time before it happens.

I don't like the proposed concept to build the industries myself. I can build some, but in big map case I should buid almost every

Every? Why every? a new industry appears almost every quarter!
BTW, may be the new industry generator (that creates new industries during gameplay) should take map size into account and create new industries according to the map size?

industry whis is on the map!! Does it statisfies you? Any challenge? The challenge is when you need to connect two industries located in the different corners of the 2048x2048 map

That is not a challenge, imho. A challenge is to make it effectively. With longer maps, higher distances and more smooth landscape it is much easier.

If you desagree but want to know the gamers opinion please make a vote and see.

I do not need a poll. I need suggestions that can be coded. "Make it better" is not a suggestion. Suggestions may look like "increase the protection period from 10 to 15 years", "decrease the growth level from 70% to 67%" and so on. Such suggestions are things to discuss. General whining about difficulty leads us nowhere.

Resume.
I'm always open for constructive suggestions. This topic proves it.
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=35603

[Rainer]

Hi George,

I do not need a poll. I need suggestions that can be coded.

ok, here come my suggestions:
1) Don't increase the protection time, but when you know the map size, protect more industries (one per type and per 64k tiles).
2) reduce the growth level to a dynamic amount that can be reached with a good service of available vehicles, make it harder to grow to higher steps.
3) reduce the shrink level to an amount a little below normal service (50 something %)

a new industry appears almost every quarter!

Do you mean "quarter of a year"? I'm sure that is not the case. In my experience, it's more one to three years.

cu
Rainer

[George]

1) Don't increase the protection time, but when you know the map size, protect more industries (one per type and per 64k tiles).

And how can I calculate which ones to protect? Idea is good, but I do not know how to implement it. The only idea that comes to my mind is: Protect the industry when where is no industry of the same type on the nearest XX tiles.

2) reduce the growth level to a dynamic amount that can be reached with a good service of available vehicles, make it harder to grow to higher steps.

The problem: I can't read the speed of available vehicles. I do not know, are there vehicles with high speed in the loaded sets or not.

3) reduce the shrink level to an amount a little below normal service (50 something %)

Why not 40%, 60%? Why 50%?

Do you mean "quarter of a year"? I'm sure that is not the case. In my experience, it's more one to three years.

number of industries = high?

[planetmaker]

1) Don't increase the protection time, but when you know the map size, protect more industries (one per type and per 64k tiles).

And how can I calculate which ones to protect? Idea is good, but I do not know how to implement it. The only idea that comes to my mind is: Protect the industry when where is no industry of the same type on the nearest XX tiles.

I think it is sufficient to correlate number of protected industries per type with the map size. Where they are on an entire map doesn't matter so much (may be either, good or bad wrt to shipping distances).

[George]

1) Don't increase the protection time, but when you know the map size, protect more industries (one per type and per 64k tiles).

And how can I calculate which ones to protect? Idea is good, but I do not know how to implement it. The only idea that comes to my mind is: Protect the industry when where is no industry of the same type on the nearest XX tiles.

I think it is sufficient to correlate number of protected industries per type with the map size. Where they are on an entire map doesn't matter so much (may be either, good or bad wrt to shipping distances).

Ok, I'll have a look. Do you mean one industry per 64k tiles too?

[Rainer]

Hi George,

1) Don't increase the protection time, but when you know the map size, protect more industries (one per type and per 64k tiles).

And how can I calculate which ones to protect? Idea is good, but I do not know how to implement it. The only idea that comes to my mind is: Protect the industry when where is no industry of the same type on the nearest XX tiles.

Sounds good to me.

2) reduce the growth level to a dynamic amount that can be reached with a good service of available vehicles, make it harder to grow to higher steps.

The problem: I can't read the speed of available vehicles. I do not know, are there vehicles with high speed in the loaded sets or not.

Perhaps you can use an estimation over time (and take the 'use wagon max speed' switch into account) or you can (if this is possible) keep a record of the overall fastest used vehicle of each type (train,mono, maglev,car,ship,plane).

3) reduce the shrink level to an amount a little below normal service (50 something %)

Why not 40%, 60%? Why 50%?

40 would be to easy, 60 would be to harsh (a little jam is enough) but thats only my opinion - what a about a parameter?

Do you mean "quarter of a year"? I'm sure that is not the case. In my experience, it's more one to three years.

number of industries = high?

No, normal on a 512x512 map.

cu
Rainer

[George]

1) I suppose I'll add the various number of protected industries according to map size when the required var 13 would be implemented (Belugas is working on it, so I expect it soon).

Perhaps you can use an estimation over time (and take the 'use wagon max speed' switch into account) or you can (if this is possible) keep a record of the overall fastest used vehicle of each type (train,mono, maglev,car,ship,plane).

I can make various required ratings for different times, but there is no way to check current speed of vehicles.

Do you mean "quarter of a year"? I'm sure that is not the case. In my experience, it's more one to three years.

number of industries = high?

No, normal on a 512x512 map.

Well, I may increase the new industry probability, but I do not think that adding more than 1 or 2 is a good idea. I suppose this number may depend on map size.

[Tashandar]

Hello,

I'm pretty new to all this and spend a few hours looking around on different sites to gain knowlegde myself. But I have a few problems with the OTTD/ECS game.

First of all I will give my Grf list in the order I load it:

---------
ECS. Town vector beta 4 (22 jan 2008)
ECS. Basic vector beta 4 (22 jan 2008)
Total Town Replacement Set v3
Long vehicles v4 (07 Sep 2007)
----------

At first look it seems all ok. But I having 2 problems I can't seems to fix.

1. Industries closes not long after I start getting supplies from it.

-Mainly the coal mines in above Grf setup. They are gone fast. Also tried adding more vectors (machinery) and I lost all raw material mines there (sand, coal and sand) before I could produce a single vehicle to send to the mines.

2. I can't seems to transport the new cargo by train.

-Main reason is that I don't see any wagons supporting the new cargo (glass, sand etc) but I see all the old ones (even the wagons where there isn't cargo for in the map like livestock). I only have the possibility to move by trucks now.

Can anyone give me any tips or solutions to these problem.

Thank you,
Tash

[bulb]

2. I can't seems to transport the new cargo by train.

-Main reason is that I don't see any wagons supporting the new cargo (glass, sand etc) but I see all the old ones (even the wagons where there isn't cargo for in the map like livestock). I only have the possibility to move by trucks now.

I actually always play with newgrf sets for all kinds of vehicles, but it should work the same way with the default trains. The normal set of wagons is available, but most of them should have the 'refitable:' parameter set to more than one cargo. Then you need to assemble a train with wagons refitable to what you need and click on the refit button in the train window, just like you do for the road vehicles.

[planetmaker]

Ok, I'll have a look. Do you mean one industry per 64k tiles too?

Well... I think I could do with less. I like rather larger maps and dislike too crowded ones (usually starting with industry and town density set to low or lowest). Maybe something like square root of the number of 64k tiles?

But to keep things simple wrt to math: one per 512^2 would suffice for me. One can work for the rest

Regards,
pm