ECS scamatic

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George
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by George »

DaleStan wrote:
George wrote:http://george.zernebok.net/newgrf/newca ... s%2015.png (big file)
Could someone make a readable description on wiki from this picture?
No. Because the key is notably absent. What do all these lines and symbols mean? Dashed? Continuous? Thick? Thin? Funny green and red and yellow archy-looking-things?
You made a good question and will get the good answer :roll:

Numbers are IDs

Solid lines means that cargo is being processed into the output cargo. Bold means the main line, thin means possible line.
Dashed line means cargo is not processed, but affects the behavior of the industry (increases production).
Dotted line (not represented on this schema) means that it is a suggestion – a question for discussion (to be or not to be).

Red anchor means that both cargoes are processed together. You can’t produce anything if you don’t have both.
Green anchor means that cargoes do not affect each other. They would be processed all at once or one by one.
Yellow anchor means that there are more complicated conditions.
No anchor means a question for discussion (green by default).

Agricultural vector
Animal farm and food plant process only one cargo at once, but can change to the other cargo on the next run.
Tinning factory requires fish or livestock and processes both at once, steel is optional.
Brewery can use only fruit or cereals at once, both glass and fruit/cereals are required at once. Brewery starts to process the first cereals/fruit delivered and processes it unless there is cargo waiting. If no cargo waiting, the brewery starts to process the other cargo.
Textile mill processes only wool or fiber crops at once, but can change to the other cargo on the next run. Both dyes and wool/fiber crops are required at once.

Wood vector
Furniture factory requires wood products, glass is optional.
Paper mill and printing works require both cargoes at once.

Construction vector
Cement works requires lime stone, sand is optional (not coded yet).

Machinery vector
Factory requires steel, wood products and glass are optional. It processes all cargoes at once.
Still mill, vehicles factory and ship yard require all cargoes at once (not coded yet).

Chemical vector
Oil refinery processes only one cargo at once (not coded yet).
Chemical plant requires refined products to produce dyes and potash/sulfur to produce fertilizer. All cargoes are processed at once (not coded yet).

Basic vector
Power station can use only oil or coal at once. It starts to process the first coal/oil delivered and processes it unless there is cargo waiting. If no cargo waiting, it starts to process the other cargo (not coded yet).
Glass works and Glass factory require and process all cargoes at once (not coded yet).

Could someone put this data on wiki?
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by ThunderAI »

George wrote:...snip...Could someone put this data on wiki?
That is very good information to have. With that knowledge completing a wiki entry on each production facility would not be very hard at all. The either or nature of some of the production facilies makes designing a network easier as you can suffel different materials to different locations. I will have to see about drawing that out eith the information you have given me.

The design choice then is to make a network that uses each raw material as effeict as possible to crreate goods then to other dead end factories.


Speaking of deadends, can you make the construction / lg construction / ship yards have some impact on the game other than bottom line. For example can a cities construction yard increase city growth?
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by George »

ThunderAI wrote:however, I am trying to understand the realtionships between production facilities.
I'm ready to help you, especially if you would help to document it for everyone on wiki.
ThunderAI wrote:The large image you sent is nice but it is not by any means clear about what is going on (not to me anyway).
What about my comments? If some questions left - ask!
ThunderAI wrote:I would rather have you develope ECS than document it, but documentation is important. Surely you have a flow chart you used to develope the vector system.
That picture was enough for me to represent the flowchart. What is missing?
ThunderAI wrote:I have made a number of basic flow charts which are contained for each production facility. From what I recall this is every factory (both computer made and human made) with their complete systems.
Is it XLS file? If so, could you send it to me?
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by George »

ThunderAI wrote:Speaking of deadends, can you make the construction / lg construction / ship yards have some impact on the game other than bottom line. For example can a cities construction yard increase city growth?
Not possible yet. We need to ask developers for new features.
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by ThunderAI »

ThunderAI wrote:I have made a number of basic flow charts which are contained for each production facility. From what I recall this is every factory (both computer made and human made) with their complete systems.
Is it XLS file? If so, could you send it to me?[/quote]

You may, it is a rar file, with an XLS file inside. Please modify it to meet how the system works. When that is completed I will work on a new map of the production chain.
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by George »

ThunderAI wrote:
ThunderAI wrote:I have made a number of basic flow charts which are contained for each production facility. From what I recall this is every factory (both computer made and human made) with their complete systems.
Is it XLS file? If so, could you send it to me?
You may, it is a rar file, with an XLS file inside. Please modify it to meet how the system works. When that is completed I will work on a new map of the production chain.[/quote]
Some fixes.
Suggestion:
split into pages, one per vector :idea:
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by ThunderAI »

George wrote:
ThunderAI wrote:
ThunderAI wrote:I have made a number of basic flow charts which are contained for each production facility. From what I recall this is every factory (both computer made and human made) with their complete systems.
Is it XLS file? If so, could you send it to me?
You may, it is a rar file, with an XLS file inside. Please modify it to meet how the system works. When that is completed I will work on a new map of the production chain.
Some fixes.
Suggestion:
split into pages, one per vector :idea:[/quote]

I looked over your changes and one page for each compelted vector would probably work fine. I double checked forests and they do not require vehciles in game, although you and the GRF say otherwise. Also the thick line was ment to display the required material that must go into the factory. You added many more thick lines. Can i assume this means that those factories require those inpuits on a one or the other bases?
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by George »

ThunderAI wrote:I looked over your changes and one page for each compelted vector would probably work fine. I double checked forests and they do not require vehciles in game, although you and the GRF say otherwise.
I suppose OTTD has the same problem as TTDP with files order and translation tables.

Developers!
could you fix the following problem: When 1-st GRF file has label XXXX defined in his translation table, and second (a file below in the GRFs list) defines cargo with label XXXX, the table in first GRF does not see this file. Could this be fixed? I mean to rebuild translation table after all cargoes are defined. So, vehicles, houses, industries and industries tiles would not have this problem.
ThunderAI wrote:Also the thick line was ment to display the required material that must go into the factory. You added many more thick lines.
I meant thick for cargo being processed into output, thin line processed into nothing, dotted for the cargo, that is not processed into other cargo. Examples:
iron ore is processed into steel at steel mill
still is processed into nothing at shipyard
fertilizer is not processed into cargo at farm
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by ThunderAI »

questions from your updated ECS XLS:

- you made no changes to fishing grounds what is the nature of passengers for this factory? Are they unrelated to fish production,or do more passenger increase production?

- Glass factory has not been changed. What items are required for production? What items boost production?

- Power Station has no thick line coming from Oil?

- Let us go through the color codes and please explain how each is different, shall we!

ORANGE Factory can only process one input at a time, other input may be wasted (is this any different then the other two criteria?)

This one I understand the least and we use it only on the brewery. Does Orange do the same as PURPLE?, Should ORANGE be replaced with PURPLE.

GREEN Factory will process the most stored input first (other is waiting)

Does mean the other input is not needed and is the same as PURPLE where the factory can use either of the inputs but not both, or three of them in teh case of soem industries?

PURPLE Factiory will process with one or the other input (is this any different then the other two criteria?)

I am assuming (hopefully correctly) this means that the factory MUST have the RED color input, but can use either or of the PURPLE inputs for a total of two inputs being used at any one time.


BLUE It is processed together with the main cargo (red), but production may gow without it

Is this the same as Production Boost (YELLOW)?
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by ThunderAI »

here is a new ecs.xls with an attempt to make a comprehensive layout
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by George »

ThunderAI wrote:questions from your updated ECS XLS:
- you made no changes to fishing grounds what is the nature of passengers for this factory? Are they unrelated to fish production,or do more passenger increase production?
They are not coded yet. currently none. Planned - the same as vehicles at mines.
ThunderAI wrote:- Glass factory has not been changed. What items are required for production? What items boost production?
glass factory requires both, as printing works do (not coded yet)
Glass works requires both sand and coal and process them. When potash appears, it processed all three at once. (Not coded yet)
ThunderAI wrote:- Power Station has no thick line coming from Oil?
It does not generate output from oil. It only processes it to nothing
ThunderAI wrote:- Let us go through the color codes and please explain how each is different, shall we!
ORANGEFactory can only process one input at a time, other input may be wasted (is this any different then the other two criteria?)
the main idea here that it is not allowed (wasted). If brewery processes cereals, you should not deliver fruit there - you'll get no profit. Currently only brewery has this behavior. Other industries, like food plants, tinning factories, animal farms accept the cargo, but throws them away from stock if it gets overflowed. But it is not processing feature, but storing feature. Because they can switch between stored cargoes (to the most stored one) while they are stored!
ThunderAI wrote:This one I understand the least and we use it only on the brewery. Does Orange do the same as PURPLE?, Should ORANGE be replaced with PURPLE.
Why purple? Light blue means optional, while orange means A MUST. You will not get food from brewery if you'll deliver no cereals nor fruit.
ThunderAI wrote:GREEN Factory will process the most stored input first (other is waiting)
Does mean the other input is not needed and is the same as PURPLE where the factory can use either of the inputs but not both, or three of them in the case of some industries?
Yes, they are not needed.
ThunderAI wrote:PURPLE Factory will process with one or the other input (is this any different then the other two criteria?)
I am assuming (hopefully correctly) this means that the factory MUST have the RED color input, but can use either or of the PURPLE inputs for a total of two inputs being used at any one time.
I used no purple
ThunderAI wrote:BLUE It is processed together with the main cargo (red), but production may go without it
Yes. But it is processed together with red cargo at once.
ThunderAI wrote:Is this the same as Production Boost (YELLOW)?
Not exactly. Yellow cargo has it's one processing loops and do not generate any output. See the fruit plantation. It processes fertilizer in October independently from producing fruit.
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by Hailas »

I don't get it, where does the food go?

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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by ThunderAI »

Hailas wrote:I don't get it, where does the food go?

Hailas
Food goes to Town and Tourist Centers
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by Tom0004 »

ThunderAI wrote:
Hailas wrote:I don't get it, where does the food go?

Hailas
Food goes to Town and Tourist Centers
just had a quick read of this thread, i just thought, what about making fast food resuarant's accept the food in the temperture climate ?

IE, MacDonalds, or KFC ? sprites for MacDonalds already exsist.

with the implemention of NewIndustrys in OTTD, i can't see why this whould be a problem
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by pecet »

I have quick question about ECS too, and since ECS-author is here...
Why fishing grounds and related industries doesn't provide something like Oil Rig - i mean shared docks for all companies?
It's quite unrealistic because i must build something like that:
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by DaleStan »

You don't need a dock. Just ctrl-build a bouy. Well, at least in TTDPatch. I don't recall any discussion about this in Open, but I know Open has changed bouys in some ways. It's at least worth a try.
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by George »

pecet wrote:I have quick question about ECS too, and since ECS-author is here...
Why fishing grounds and related industries doesn't provide something like Oil Rig - i mean shared docks for all companies?
It should provide. if not - make a bug report.
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by Roujin »

For me, it did provide a neutral station - named "Oil Rig", but that's an OpenTTD issue, not an issue of your .grf, as far as i understood, right? ;)

Maybe pecet's issue is caused by some strange combination of grfs... you should at least post what grfs you used.

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@DaleStan: CTRL-placing buoys seems to do nothing special in Open, just tested it and it behaves like a normal buoy. No cargo unloaded, no ships stopping.
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by pecet »

Ok when I started new game it's working fine, so I think it's because I started previously mentioned game few revision ago when OTTD doesn't support that feature or something like that...
(Buoy doesn't accept anything, but maybe it's correct behavior since I can use now fishing grounds like docks)

Edit: Oh, so according to Roujin it's working just fine ;)

Edit2: So thanks for your time.
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Re: ECS scamatic

Post by George »

2ThunderAI:
How does your work go?
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