New Graphics - Blender ".blend" thread (Works In Progress)

[TrueBrain]

OpenTTD will soon (don't know what time period that equals to) support 128 and 256 tilesets.

Can you provide a cite for that? As in, a post in which a dev has said as much?

Yup:

http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=619405#p619405

To quote myself:

If the artists want and can create zoom-in levels [graphic wise], it won't be long before they will be loadable in OpenTTD.

The only reason it is not yet possible, is because of some pixel-errors because of rounding problems going from one mapping-system to the other.. but oh well, nothing is impossible; the impossible just takes a little bit longer.

[Ben_Robbins_]

Dave Worley: The problem is just that at higher zoom levels it becomes extremely obvious when things are out of scale. You have less artistic license, and can get away with less. A pixel in the originals was to within a few feet, while at full zoom 1 pixel is a few inches.

Belugas: The proposal I made is not based on realism, it is based on making things plausible in the same way as the original. The original scales for the most part meet the ratio’s I said to 12.5m tiles, but the once vehicles get to a certain size they remain at a fixed maximum size.

Lordofthepigs: I don't think anyone has any problem understanding anything. The problem is that the original specification that was laid out by Alltaken has been being followed for 2-3 years, and there is some reluctance to shrivel up all the models into the original sizing, and try to get away with it. Yes the original proposal wasn't an agreed goal by the dev's, but that was not known by most and is what people have been making graphics to.

Anyway, I've attached an image with 2 things.
1) The first bridge I’ve had a go at.
2) A test train, edited on. The top one is 1:1 scale, and the bottom is about 80% of the scale, and then broken up and reassembled using the key bits that make the train what it is. (noticeable characteristics). This is the size it would need to be if the half tile limit has to be kept to. All I’ll say on it, is that I suggest blocking one from view when looking at the other to give fair judgment.

[athanasios]

Thanks for the display. It is obvious that the second trains looks ridiculous.
Either you have to resize it in scale to fit in half tile or we have to get new code to avoid the half tile limit. And is not only this the limit. Ships have a two tile limit in TTD. (I suppose the same applies in OpenTTD.)
My personal opinion: First is big, so we need to scale it down (as for example you did to 80%) (and all the other graphics too), but not to half tile length. It should have the correct length.

Some argue that a road is not 25m. It is true. One way roads are 10 - 12m. Two way roads like the one in our game a bit more (<15m) If we downscale we have to deal with that. We can make bigger pavements (Cities in the centre definetely have much much bigger pavements that the ones in the game and in suburbs we can have grass and plant some trees. Something similar can be applied on rails inside the city. Here I don't want to be realistic. I want to have plenty of free space for trees and grass. Something we are desperately missing in most big cities. At least let us have it in OpenTTD.

[Rubidium]

Just one thing to take into consideration: vehicles in both 32bpp and 8bpp have to be the same size as we want people with 32bpp and 8bpp graphics to be able to play the same network game. This because we are not going to ditch 8bpp and we are not going to ditch NewGRF support and implement something completely new because some people want 32bpp graphics. 32bpp graphics are *only* replacements for 8bpp graphics. They do not change the game state in any way, nor will they.

Second thing: any train/road vehicle longer than a half a tile is going to get glitchy virtually everywhere in the game.

[mr_worf]

Just some thoughts,

I dont think it looks rediculous, it looks as though it is a higher resolution version of the existing HST.. Which you would expect i suppose.

We are building on top of a platform that has sprites exactly like the second example, Chris Sawyer when he created this games predecessor appeared more concerned with game play rather than the realism of the sprites, coupled with hardware limitations of the day his decision required that trains merely gave the impression of a particular model. This seems perfectly reasonable to me, now we can upgrade the sprites to 32bpp but we will need to keep the same mold until an alternative engine is made (such as locomotion maybe?)

of course you may not want to go to work in a 6.5 metre long intercity 125 in real life , but for the purposes of a game it works fine.IMO

What im saying is that we have to remember what this game hails from, and its not hailing from a stand point of 100% realistic or accurate sprites, rather it hails from sprites that represent a particular reallife loco or wagon, by enhancing the said locos features.

[Zephyris]

Is there a 32bpp passenger carriage to put in to simulate a train? I think the short version looks fine, especially if heading a train...

[Red*Star]

Ok, this is the "Blender" thread, but hopefully files of other modeling tools are also allowed to be discussed

So if the scale of 12.5m per tile for buildings is the right one now, then I can finally upload my first contribution: outlines of the tropical bank. It has still a very basic shape, but apart from the lacking details, what do you think of it?

[Jupix]

I hope you're aware there's already one tropical bank being modeled (looks very near to being finished).

[mr_worf]

Having said what i said earlier, i would prefer to use at least realisticish lengths for trains.. i just dont know how feesable that is.

[Red*Star]

@Jupix: Oh, I didn't realized that... I just took a look at the wiki.

[Jupix]

@Jupix: Oh, I didn't realized that... I just took a look at the wiki.

Yeah, look here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=33351

[Red*Star]

But that's the "old" scale, isn't it?

[DaleStan]

If the artists can create zoom-in levels

Ay. There's the rub.

I haven't seen anything that even begins to approach the type of work necessary for such things. Some 250 sprites have been created, maybe? Of about 5000 required?

[Jupix]

But that's the "old" scale, isn't it?

I don't know, but even if it is, isn't it just a matter of re-rendering the sprite?

[LordAzamath]

I hope you're aware there's already one tropical bank being modeled (looks very near to being finished).

Yup. There is. But I'm pretty sure that this building could be an arctic bank. I mean my tropical bank does NOT fit in arctic any way. In wiki it says it's Arctic/Tropical.

So I think it would fit nicely as an arctic bank.

BTW I know I said in my thread that I will update, but I have not had any time at moment.

[GeekToo]

Anyway, I've attached an image with 2 things.
1) The first bridge I’ve had a go at.
2) A test train, edited on. The top one is 1:1 scale, and the bottom is about 80% of the scale, and then broken up and reassembled using the key bits that make the train what it is. (noticeable characteristics). This is the size it would need to be if the half tile limit has to be kept to. All I’ll say on it, is that I suggest blocking one from view when looking at the other to give fair judgment.

I guess both trains are acceptable( of course not when both would be in the game at the same time), but I find it hard to judge without any reference, like a building.
--
I'm having a small problem here: I hate to break the interesting scaling discussion, but I also want to show an update of the grass tiles, that started in this thread. So should I start a new temperate climate thread, or should we continue the scaling discussion in another thread?

Anyway, as DaleStan suggested, there's still a lot of sprites to do, so let's move on with 17 grass tiles:
-I decided to make the hue of the grass more green, for 2 reasons:
-> to make it look more like the original game
-> to make it more compatible with Ben's grass on 256px, it makes no sense to create 2 or more sets of grass when so much sprites still need to be done. The match for shading may not yet be perfect for these 2 zoom levels, but at least the hue is.

Furthermore, I did the bottom and top of the hill tiles, and did update a lot of pixels in the Gimp, to make the tiling ( which introduces of annoying patterns ), more pleasant.

Still it's not perfect, but I can use some feedback, as I'm slowly running blind for green pixel artefacts .

So let me know, how does it look in general, what are the most ugly tiles, and what are the most ugly spots in the tiles?

[Tom0004]

TBH only one thing that doesn't match the level of your detail, and that is (has much as it, makes me sad) is thr orignal sprites.

Awesome work !!

[athanasios]

32bpp graphics are *only* replacements for 8bpp graphics. They do not change the game state in any way, nor will they.

Second thing: any train/road vehicle longer than a half a tile is going to get glitchy virtually everywhere in the game.

That's pretty bad.
Means game will continue to have same glitches with original.
I thought the aim was to get new 8bpp and 32bpp graphics and not the current unscaled, even in for same object in diffferent views, graphics...

So for me, regarding bigger tilesets, there is no other way than extreme downscaling...

GeekToo
I just reduced lightness by 10% in four pixels which stood out (orange arrow = before, blue arrow = after). Just 10% is enough I believe.
The 2 on east slope have the bad luck to also be in same horizontal line. If a pixel is much different than the others try not to be on same line or near another one of same value. There might be a couple more that escaped my notice. If you provided a higher hill we might catch them.
Red arrows point to an area where a couple of pixels are a bit more bright than their neigbours too. Also flat tiles have those 2 continious lines. This is optional to smooth a bit, as it currently enhances the isometric view and may be considered the characteristic of this set. Original sprites had their own repeated patterns.

[DaleStan]

Original sprites had their own repeated patterns.

They did, but the repeated patterns were vastly overwhelmed by the tile grid. If possible, I'd like to see either no noticeable patterns, or patterns that follow the gridlines.

[Ben_Robbins_]

Rubidium: Why would it not be possible to gave a grf for 8bpp which is the equivalent for the 32bpp graphics. This would then allow people to play a network game, some with 8bpp some with 32bpp full zoom graphics.

Zephyris: I don’t have a passenger carriage at the moment, but I’ve just photoshopped one on quickly as an example.

Dalestan: Thanks for that productive input.

For the smaller train that has been arranged to fit in with the old scale; It has also been shrunk 80%. Even if the length is unbelievable it could be believed to run along the rails as a TT looking train, but at 80% it looks too small for its rails, it sits between the rails, rather than on the rails. In this attached the top one is 100% (12.5m tiles) scale but shrunk lengthways.

My view on this is that I would really like to see vehicles being able to be larger, and realistically scaled in comparison to other vehicles of there type. I also think a lot of artists that have produced things in the past such as Crazy vaclav may be reluctant to downscale. One thing that a lot of people were/are eager about is having larger vehicles, and that would be lost. Squidging could be made to work, but if not squidging could be made to work then that would be even better.

Nice work on graphics also guys!