Extended Cargo Scheme (ECS) discussion

[WWTBAM]

are you sure, it supports its own industries, i know the planeset supports ecs though

[T-pix]

are you sure, it supports its own industries, i know the planeset supports ecs though

i haven't checked whole scale of cargos but still it's 'playable' with ECS

[George]

Thank you for your report, LittleHelper

- i'm using my favorite european scenerio, start 1930...with cht year 1980

Unfortunately, you can't apply ECS to the existing saves withoput problems. The scenario is the save, so it is the same here

2.First: My compliments
This is really a great improvement for TTD to have different kind of industries to play with. The fun factor is getting higher (not only with the new graphics). Thanks to you, George and your team, for inventing, creating and working on this set.

We do what we can

One and half week I tried to install the ecs system, but i couldn't achieve a proper installation

What problems did you have?

Only one short remark: It should be mentioned somewhere that the "ECSDVerhw.grf" is necessary that some type of cargo trucks/waggons are properly shown in the game. From your website I had the impression first that it relates only to the AI.

It does not affect trucks. It is a temorary file, that would be removed as soon as DB set would support ECS, that would happen with the next version, as Michael said.

b) Appearances of industries
The new industries are nearly all available and properly named. Nice graphics... and no problem to approach them ...hehe. But...
- some old industries got wrong namings (eg the oil rigg is a Bank now, farms are power stations and iron ore mines are forests).
- I realized that I have TWO glass works(=GW) on my map, but only ONE (!) is visible. I dont know what conflict creates this problem, but this is one of the problems I had with my first installation of ECS, too. The altitude for the visible GW is 16 feet, for the non-visible GW 32 feet. May be the difference in altitude causes the problem ?!?
- I even tried the cht: ReloadIndustries... no change.

Unfortunately, there is no way to apply it correctly. Thу only thing you can do is to open the scenario in editor, apply ECS and rebuild all the industries by hands

- I have two different kind of oil tankers; the capacity for one shows 56 passengers, the other one 60 goods.
- the water tanker shows "cannot remove obstacles on land - Oil"
- there are some toyland trucks (i'm not so familiar with them) available, for the fruit truck even no grf can be found.
- the lifestock truck can carry 80 goods
- i tried to load some iron ore with an iron ore hopper. As capacity it shows 60 goods ... nevertheless i tried.

Did you try reset vehicles cheat?

I went to the station, no loading, bought some other iron ore hoppers (they appear two times in the menu). Something must have changed .. now I have 5 iron ore hoppers ... 3 of them are showing capacity for iron ore...the other 2 are showing only capacity for goods.

If reset vehicles does not help, give me please more info about this problem

d) Messages/Closing of industries
- I couldn't and didnt want to experience/play for a long time. But during this period (~4year) a lot of messages were coming up about the "destiny of industries" (production messages, shutting down, opening). It was quite overwhelming.

I have remove all the messages for low and very low levels of production. Should I do the same for normal level too?

- Regarding the shut downs of existing industries (2nd tier industries eg furniture factory) only one question. To develop a proper rail/industry raw material system, it needs some time (...and money... hehe). I saw only that the furniture factory closed quite quickly.

Every industry is protected for 2 years, and have a 4% chance to close every month (if it has very low production level)/ that menas 62% chance to close during the next two years. Should I increase the protection age or reduce the closedown chance?

What are the guidelines that these kind of industries re-appear in a "suffient" way that the industry sets are really offering a lot of fun ?

now every industry has 4% chance to close every month, if it has the lowest production level. The industries have prop18=01, I don't know, what chance of appearence does it mean.

e) Question: Other train sets
Will it be possible to use other train sets in combinatuon with your vectors (eg the dbxl set) ?

Yes, they will. But when?

[PikkaBird]

are you sure, it supports its own industries, i know the planeset supports ecs though

i haven't checked whole scale of cargos but still it's 'playable' with ECS

The UKRS (and NARS) support newcargos - they should be able to carry everything. But they don't specifically support ECS, and may not have suitable graphics for every cargo.

[George]

are you sure, it supports its own industries, i know the planeset supports ecs though

i haven't checked whole scale of cargos but still it's 'playable' with ECS

The UKRS (and NARS) support newcargos - they should be able to carry everything. But they don't specifically support ECS, and may not have suitable graphics for every cargo.

Do you mean they use class-based cargo graphics? ECS specifies cargo classes and that is the way how planeset supports it.

As for UKRS (and NARS), could you update http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... rgo_Labels if you provide some other cargos with UKRS?

[PikkaBird]

I haven't used any cargo lables, only classes (and the default cargos by ID).

[George]

I haven't used any cargo lables, only classes (and the default cargos by ID).

does it mean that there are no new cargos?

[PikkaBird]

does it mean that there are no new cargos?

Not in the trainsets, no. My industries are a seperate grf.

[George]

does it mean that there are no new cargos?

Not in the trainsets, no. My industries are a seperate grf.

I had a look at your page and found, that there are new cargos in your industries sets. Like lumber, for example. I think you should specify it as "WDPR" (wood products) so other sets, like LV4, for example, could support your industries set, or define some new cargo label http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CargoTypes

[LittleHelper]

1. Use of existing Scenario ?
I learned from you, George, that all existing industries can be replaced with new industries in the scenario editor (i wouldn't mind to go for it if I could play my favorite scenario . Is this the only problem with earlier created scenarios ?

2. First install problems
There were some sprite issues and I couldn't see any of the new industries (pls. see below). I can't recall all problems in detail, on a different forum page i even asked for some help. I guess the sprite issues were related to some "old" ecs-files.

3. Necessity of "ECSDVehw.grf"
hmm... pls. see below

4. Amount of messages
Too early for me to say...

5. Protection of industries/shut downs
a) In principle a longer protection period would be good. The risk of a shut down is always immanent,... no risk ..no fun ...hehe
b) You can even distinguish between the starting period of a game and a later stage:
- I created in my scenario some raw material industries (eg wood, sand in the northeast) and some 2nd tier (eg glass, furniture in the west- don't know the exact english word for it) industries, which can be only connected to the railway network after having played for 10-15 years.
- The situation becomes quite different if a 2nd tier industry appears later after having developed a basic railway network with already existing access to wood, sand etc. Then the protection period might be shorter.

6. New trial = partial new outcome
This evening i tried again to get some further clues.
a) Config: see pic1+2
b) Industries
- Existing scenario: First i tried to replace the existing old industries with new industries after having applied the ecs grfs in the scenario editor. No problem so far, all new industries are on the map and visible. But if i wanna play this game, i have NO trains at all ...hmm... cht: resetvehicles didnt help.
- New game: i started a new game and checked at first the industries and the result can be seen on pic1+2. I also tried cht: ReloadIndustries.
c) Cargos
In the new game the trains and cargos are available. But the cargos for the new industries are only (!) available if i apply "ECSDVehw.grf". Otherwise only the normal, basic cargos are being shown. If ECSVehw is switched on, the cargos and capacities for them seem to be ok with the exception of the last 4 cargos.

7. Proposal
- Is it possible to create and publish an example basic config for your vectors, George ? This can be done in a text file or, even better, in a zip file which contains all necessary files (newgrfw.cfg, grfs, ttdpatch.cfg) for a proper game play.
- If i can help you in the last issue (eg in writing a short manual and/or putting the necessary files together), pls. drop me a short PM.

LH

PS: IS there a switch that a new game always starts with "drive on right"... ?!?!

[George]

1. Use of existing Scenario ?
I learned from you, George, that all existing industries can be replaced with new industries in the scenario editor (i wouldn't mind to go for it if I could play my favorite scenario . Is this the only problem with earlier created scenarios ?

It is the problem I know. May be there are others. Remember, before putting new industries, you should enable the required ECS files.

2. First install problems
There were some sprite issues and I couldn't see any of the new industries (pls. see below).

The pic below shows applying the ECS in the existing game. Do the problemm appear in the new game, generated randomly, and in saves, created with ECS?

I can't recall all problems in detail, on a different forum page i even asked for some help. I guess the sprite issues were related to some "old" ecs-files.

Sorry, where?

3. Necessity of "ECSDVehw.grf"hmm... pls. see below

I do not understand the question. If you use default trains and want AI/you to transport new ECS cargos by rail - you need this file. Otherwise - no.

5. Protection of industries/shut downs
a) In principle a longer protection period would be good.

How long?

b) You can even distinguish between the starting period of a game and a later stage:

what values (in years) do you suggest?

- I created in my scenario some raw material industries (eg wood, sand in the northeast) and some 2nd tier (eg glass, furniture in the west- don't know the exact english word for it) industries, which can be only connected to the railway network after having played for 10-15 years.

And? 15 year protection from the beginning sounds ugly.

- The situation becomes quite different if a 2nd tier industry appears later after having developed a basic railway network with already existing access to wood, sand etc. Then the protection period might be shorter.

But what numbers do you suggest?

6. New trial = partial new outcome
This evening i tried again to get some further clues.
a) Config: see pic1+2
b) Industries
- Existing scenario: First i tried to replace the existing old industries with new industries after having applied the ecs grfs in the scenario editor. No problem so far, all new industries are on the map and visible. But if i wanna play this game, i have NO trains at all ...hmm... cht: resetvehicles didnt help.

cheat year 1950?

- New game: i started a new game and checked at first the industries and the result can be seen on pic1+2. I also tried cht: ReloadIndustries.

You started the OLD game. New game is a game that is made with "generate random new game" button.

c) Cargos
In the new game the trains and cargos are available. But the cargos for the new industries are only (!) available if i apply "ECSDVehw.grf".

You mean vehicles, not cargos. Have a look at cargo payment graph

Otherwise only the normal, basic cargos are being shown.

You mean transported, not shown. Try to refit a long vehicle

If ECSVehw is switched on, the cargos and capacities for them seem to be ok with the exception of the last 4 cargos.

that is because you do not use all the ECS files. ECS vehicles is a test file, so I did not add the aviable cargos control into it.

7. Proposal
- Is it possible to create and publish an example basic config for your vectors, George ?

Just add this to the beginning of the newgrf.cfg
newgrf/ECSTownw.grf
newgrf/ECSBasicw.grf
newgrf/ECSBasArw.grf
newgrf/ECSBasTrw.grf
newgrf/ECSChemw.grf
newgrf/ECSMachw.grf
newgrf/ECSMacTrw.grf
newgrf/ECSWoodw.grf
newgrf/ECSConstw.grf
newgrf/ECSAgriw.grf
## LV4
newgrf/4LVw.grf
newgrf/4LVCutw.grf !
## Vehs
newgrf/ECSDVehw.grf

This can be done in a text file or, even better, in a zip file which contains all necessary files (newgrfw.cfg, grfs, ttdpatch.cfg) for a proper game play.

You can specify ttdpatch cfg to what ever you like. The grf will report if something is wrong

- If i can help you in the last issue (eg in writing a short manual and/or putting the necessary files together), pls. drop me a short PM.

Yes, such help would be very usefull. I do not have time to write helps and if someone is ready to help me here - that is wonderful

PS: IS there a switch that a new game always starts with "drive on right"... ?!?!

I suppose no.

[Vik]

I can't use fishing grounds. How do they soppose to work? I don't get them into my orders list.
I am using newships.grf

[Caelan]

you can use ctrl-click at buys near fishing grounds thne you can order ships to that direction

[LittleHelper]

George,
pffff....finally I got it working. Thanks again for your help regarding the setup.

1. Three iteems to be changed
- new games only if you choose "random new game". I had started always one of the other "new" games.
- my european scenario works as well. I had replaced all existing with new industries.
- having no trains was related to the starting year and ...uhhh...having the game in pause mode by using the year forward cheat.
- and I had to switch "experimentalfeatures.mandatorygrm off". Otherwise I got sprite errors.

2. Still loading errors (in tropic and arctic ecs files)
The normal ecs files are working. For the tropic and arctic basic vectors i get error messages that they are incompatible with the basic vector. Similar the tropic machinery vector (incompatible with MachineryVector).

3. Wood vector experiences
a) i started a first line to two forests and a sawmill. i made hardly any profits on it, one forest produced only 20t/m, the other one 0 (!?!).
b) i restarted and the first line to make money was coal+iron ore to a steel mill. the wood industry started to disappear after 2 month (!), after 2 years nearly all secondary wood industries were gone, esp. the saw- and papermills.
c) restart, first line to the steel mill AND two trucks installed on two forests. after a short time two other, not feeded sawmills closed. after two years i realized that the sawmill, which was fed by two trucks, had closed ! uuhhh

4. Questions regarding forests and other industries
a) why are forests shutting down at all ? in reality basic industries (or better the raw material) stays for some time, esp. if no one picks it up. wouldn't it be more normal that they are not shutting down. the argument, it's a company/industry, might work only for mines in my eyes.
b) why is there such a high and quick volatility in the output of a forest ? is it in reality the same that forests are so unstable in "producing" wood ?
c) how is it working in combination with the other industry vectors ? do i "suffer" on the same timing pressure to avoid quick shut downs ?
d) is it possible to implement a bit switch with whom the protection period/production volatility can be regulated to a certain amount ?

5. Ideas/recommendations
The following is based on my first impressions; i have played only a very limited amount of time, but you have asked me. Therefore you get a "hip shot" answer:
I would like to use the 4 existing levels of the wood vector (from forest to sawmill to paper mill to printing works/furniture fabric) as criteria for the protection period; in specific:
a) Forest (as raw material):
- shutting down should be the exception.
- production volatility should be decreased (to reduce the production changes would reduce the related messages as well).
b) Shut downs of secondary wood industries (sawmill, paper mill, printing works, furniture fabric): none of these should close at all, if they get (even only by one truck) one necessary cargo.
c) Protection period for secondary wood industries:
- sawmills should be protected for 2 years
- paper mills for 4 years
- and the other two for 6 years.

Regarding the time pls. have in mind, that we usually want to develop not only a wood industry, we have to care about the usual city development as well (and not to forget other industries).

LH

[George]

1. Three iteems to be changed
- new games only if you choose "random new game".

I wrote it

I had started always one of the other "new" games.
- my european scenario works as well. I had replaced all existing with new industries.
- having no trains was related to the starting year and ...uhhh...having the game in pause mode by using the year forward cheat.
- and I had to switch "experimentalfeatures.mandatorygrm off". Otherwise I got sprite errors.

That is intended

2. Still loading errors (in tropic and arctic ecs files)
The normal ecs files are working. For the tropic and arctic basic vectors i get error messages that they are incompatible with the basic vector. Similar the tropic machinery vector (incompatible with MachineryVector).

You can have only one basic/machinery vector at once. But with grf management window you can choose which ones do you want

3. Wood vector experiences
a) i started a first line to two forests and a sawmill. i made hardly any profits on it, one forest produced only 20t/m, the other one 0 (!?!).

That is strange. post your savegame

b) i restarted and the first line to make money was coal+iron ore to a steel mill. the wood industry started to disappear after 2 month (!), after 2 years nearly all secondary wood industries were gone, esp. the saw- and papermills.

they can't close in the first two years except the special cases, and forests can't close in first 4 years

c) restart, first line to the steel mill AND two trucks installed on two forests. after a short time two other, not feeded sawmills closed. after two years i realized that the sawmill, which was fed by two trucks, had closed ! uuhhh

if you do not transport cargo FROM the industry - it has high chance to close! Especially the sawmill

4. Questions regarding forests and other industries
a) why are forests shutting down at all?

Because they are not in service

in reality basic industries (or better the raw material) stays for some time,

What time?

esp. if no one picks it up. wouldn't it be more normal that they are not shutting down.

Why?

the argument, it's a company/industry, might work only for mines in my eyes.
b) why is there such a high and quick volatility in the output of a forest ? is it in reality the same that forests are so unstable in "producing" wood ?

Yes. If noone buys wood noone cuts trees.

c) how is it working in combination with the other industry vectors ? do i "suffer" on the same timing pressure to avoid quick shut downs ?

Than more vectors are loaded at the same time, than harder the game is (IMHO)

d) is it possible to implement a bit switch with whom the protection period/production volatility can be regulated to a certain amount ?

I do not see the benefit in it. Let us better select the optimal values and use them.

5. Ideas/recommendations
The following is based on my first impressions; i have played only a very limited amount of time, but you have asked me. Therefore you get a "hip shot" answer:
I would like to use the 4 existing levels of the wood vector (from forest to sawmill to paper mill to printing works/furniture fabric) as criteria for the protection period; in specific:
a) Forest (as raw material):
- shutting down should be the exception.

Why?

- production volatility should be decreased (to reduce the production changes would reduce the related messages as well).

how much?

b) Shut downs of secondary wood industries (sawmill, paper mill, printing works, furniture fabric): none of these should close at all, if they get (even only by one truck) one necessary cargo.

That would make many industries that take industres array slots, but do not make any benefit. NO. There is a minimal level of supply for low production level that is about 3 trains of lenth 6. If you can't achieve this level of supply - you get the chance to close. If you keep the industry on the production level above "very low" - industry will not close.

c) Protection period for secondary wood industries:
- sawmills should be protected for 2 years

they are

- paper mills for 4 years

why?

- and the other two for 6 years.

why?

Regarding the time pls. have in mind, that we usually want to develop not only a wood industry, we have to care about the usual city development as well (and not to forget other industries).

Industries first, cities last

[DaleStan]

2. Still loading errors (in tropic and arctic ecs files)
The normal ecs files are working. For the tropic and arctic basic vectors i get error messages that they are incompatible with the basic vector. Similar the tropic machinery vector (incompatible with MachineryVector).

You can have only one basic/machinery vector at once. But with grf management window you can choose which ones do you want

Is there some reason the various vectors don't automatically enable/disable themselves according to current climate?

[LittleHelper]

...they can't close in the first two years except the special cases, and forests can't close in first 4 years...

I tested it three times. Closures are starting after the 2nd month and after 1.5 year I have lost at least 4 wood facilities of 9 (savegame attached, starting year 1960, northeast region near St.Petersburg/Murmansk).

What time? Why?

hmm ...some forests are "available" for milleniums, minerals also.
One general question in this context: Shall these rules be so restrictive due to programming or specific gaming reason ? Is the target to approach only high-end users of TTD with these industry sets ?

protection of paper mills for 4 years ... why?
and the other two for 6 years ...why?

If I start a scenario/new game I have to develop some railway grid, ...have to pay back my debts... and I have no city which takes goods during the first 4 to 5 years.
If I can achieve a profit making industry during the first 4-5 years then I can start to expand, esp. deliver cargos across long distances.

kind regards
LH

[George]

2. Still loading errors (in tropic and arctic ecs files)The normal ecs files are working. For the tropic and arctic basic vectors i get error messages that they are incompatible with the basic vector. Similar the tropic machinery vector (incompatible with MachineryVector).

You can have only one basic/machinery vector at once. But with grf management window you can choose which ones do you want

Is there some reason the various vectors don't automatically enable/disable themselves according to current climate?

Yes. You can use arctic mod in tropic and tropic mod in arctic. And in toyland too.

[wallyweb]

The ECS industry vectors seem to be reasonably well worked out.
Now might be the time for some fine tuning.

1. With respect to Little Helper's notes above, resource industries never shut down completely, unless the resource is completely used up or becomes so low that it is uneconomical to extract. Therefore, a mine or a forest, once established, should always be there. What should happen is, if the resource is not used (picked up?) for a year or so, production can fall off, even down to 0. Then, if one wishes to bring that mine or forest back into service, It would require time to return to full production. A newly established resource should also take time to reach full production. Bottom line is a resource such as a mine or a pit or a forest should never close completely unless the resource is exausted.

2. What is wrong with the fruit plantation?
- a. - Why can it only be built in towns? I live in a town and there are no plantations in the town. They are all out in the countryside near the farms.
- b. - I can understand why in a game, like the forests, they can only be built during spring and not in the winter, but why can't they be built anytime in the scenario editor which only makes January available? The forests work this way so why not the fruit plantations?

3. Furniture Fabric - In English, "Furniture Factory" might be more appropriate.
Why can't I lower land next to the furniture factory? I can do it with just about everything else.

4. Bricks from coal? Why not clay? The sand pit could be made to produce clay as well as sand and that would be realistic. Then bricks could require both coal AND clay. The glass works could also buy clay.

5. Why doesn't the lime quarry look like a quarry? An open pit image such as with the gold mine, iron mine or sand pit would be more appropriate. I suggest swapping the gold mine graphic with the lime quarry graphic for realism purposes.

6. Vehicle issue - add a "Vehicle Dealer" to the machinery vector. The dealer would be located in towns, just like the large construction industry, and accept vehicles, petrol, and refined products, while producing nothing, just like the large construction industry.

7. Add a Machinery/Engineering Plant to the Machinery Vector. It would buy the same types of materials as the Vehicle Plant, but it would produce machinery (instead of vehicles) to be transported to resources. The machinery could also be transported to the shipyard instead dye.

8. This one is for Michael Blunck ... Ships! How about allowing the Passenger Liner to be refitable to tourists? Also, shouldn't the Reefer be able to carry food?

[michael blunck]

The ECS industry vectors seem to be reasonably well worked out.
Now might be the time for some fine tuning.

Many of the shortcomings mentioned aren´t a feature of the original ECS scheme but are simply frills of George´s implementation. In fact there will be more/other/additional implementations of the ECS scheme (e.g. mine) which will act differently with regards to most of the things mentioned above.

Remember that the core of ECS are just the selection of goods and their associated cargo bits and labels and (part of) the vectors but not the special behaviour of the industries.

All in all, the naming of George´s files is quite misleading with regards to this.

4. Bricks from coal? Why not clay? The sand pit could be made to produce clay as well as sand and that would be realistic. Then bricks could require both coal AND clay.

O/c bricks aren´t made "from coal" instead coal is required to fire the brick work kilns. And usually, brick works would be established at a clay site. I never saw clay being transported to bricks works. So this would be highly unrealistic. In addition, having it the way it os now gives a nice variety in comparison to all of the other industries which usually get all of their needed materials either by themselves (extractive industry) or by another industry (processing industry).

8. This one is for Michael Blunck ... Ships! How about allowing the Passenger Liner to be refitable to tourists? Also, shouldn't the Reefer be able to carry food?

This is all adressed in NewShips XL. However, each time I was ready to release, something more important was happening. Besides, the reefer is able to carry food.

regards
Michael