"French Trains Set - freight rolling stock needs drawing

The Irish · Post by **The Irish** » 21 Dec 2005 07:44

Snail,

Great steamers as always. Looks beautiful. The steamers in this set are gonna rock!

About the consists colours. I'm not sure that it is a good idea to have each couple random. I think the first purchased engine should determine the colour of the consists. I like my trains in one colour at least at first purchase. Then later when the need arises to add a third couple, It might be in different colours, as it has been purchased later. But that's just my opinion.
as for the change to TER livery, this should be only for the units purchased after 2000, not that all already running units change it all of a sudden.

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 21 Dec 2005 08:00

The Irish wrote:About the consists colours. I'm not sure that it is a good idea to have each couple random. I think the first purchased engine should determine the colour of the consists. I like my trains in one colour at least at first purchase. Then later when the need arises to add a third couple, It might be in different colours, as it has been purchased later.

That would be substantially more impossible. The only way I see to do that would be to compare each wagon's build year to the engine's build year, which would:
1) require calculations.
2) probably break when the engine is renewed. (Wagons that were purchased after the engine are now purchased before the engine instead.)

It could be pretty easily arranged so that the first two pairs always get the same color, and the third pair a different color, but that's probably not really what you wanted either.

The Irish · Post by **The Irish** » 21 Dec 2005 08:07

No it isn't. Sorry I think I wasn't clear in my description.

I would do it manually. I by the first couple in one year. then some years later, I buy (with CTRL) a second pair that is in a different colour (or maybe not) and order the train to the depot. then add the new purchased wagons to the consist.

Snail,
I assume that the not powered part would have to be purchased as a normal local passenger coach?

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 21 Dec 2005 08:13

The Irish wrote:Snail,

Great steamers as always. Looks beautiful. The steamers in this set are gonna rock!

Thanks man!

I appreciate that.

The Irish wrote:About the consists colours. I'm not sure that it is a good idea to have each couple random. I think the first purchased engine should determine the colour of the consists. I like my trains in one colour at least at first purchase. Then later when the need arises to add a third couple, It might be in different colours, as it has been purchased later. But that's just my opinion.

I see... well, historically, the consists were somewhat mixed, i.e. the 2-wagons couple (engine and trailer) were never decoupled so they kept their original (same) livery, but when 4-car or 6-car unit consists were needed, they just attached the first couple they could find in the yard. So it happened to have different colors.
We might keep the same livery for the whole consist for a certain period of time (say, first 10 years) and then random liveries for each couple until 2000 to recreate the effect that in the first years of their life, those engines received more "attention" (so the consists were purposedly built with the same livery to look nicer) and in the later years these "old-designed" trains were built without such care. Of course this would only apply to newly built trains. Would it be possible?

-EDIT- I saw now your last post. Yeah, that could be another way of doing it.

As for the Ctrl-Click or the "More/Stop" method of purchase... I really don't know. We could have either a DBSet-like method, where all cars are purchased as pax (or mail) coaches, they get the correct livery and only the 1st, 3rd and 5th get powered, OR we could have the Ctrl-Click method. But with the Ctrl-Click, the user should be prevented from adding more coaches than engines (that is, 1 engine and 3 coaches shoud be impossible; 2 engines and 2 coaches should work fine).

I'd go for the More/Stop method (as long as MB doesn't hold a copyright on that!

), but if you think the other method is better, we can go for that instead.

The Irish wrote:as for the change to TER livery, this should be only for the units purchased after 2000, not that all already running units change it all of a sudden.

Sure. As well as any other livery override in the set. The purpose of this is to have much more variety in the game. So in year 2001 we could have old colored consists along with modern TER ones, like it happened in reality.

Thx Dalestan for his precious consulting. Although I'm no coder so I cannot always follow your explanations, I'm sure our coders will find them very valuable and useful. We really appreciate that. Keep it up!

jvassie · Post by **jvassie** » 21 Dec 2005 09:17

Thanks for the coding advice DaleStan! That helps make it more clear... TBH, though, i think it would be better to do the more/stop approach. Say when the units are first intro'd in 1980, they get a random livery for the whole train. For example, say that the amount of Passengers isnt quite alrge enough for a 6-car set but is for a 4-car set. Then randomly youd get a 4-car set in (blue/grey or blue/white or blue/red or red/white or yellow/white or green/white), after a decade or so, after the numbers have picked up, the owner may need to lengthen the train by adding another pair, these will be in another random livery obviously, but if it is after 2000, then they get TER livery, if not, then 1 of the 6 other schemes.

This would most likely be the best way of doing it i think. It would still keep variey but not introduce too much hassle...

James

Post by **PikkaBird** » 21 Dec 2005 10:19

Snail wrote:As for the Ctrl-Click or the "More/Stop" method of purchase... I really don't know. We could have either a DBSet-like method, where all cars are purchased as pax (or mail) coaches, they get the correct livery and only the 1st, 3rd and 5th get powered, OR we could have the Ctrl-Click method.

I'd be inclined to either;

a) split the power between the two heads, rather than have one powered and one non-powered. The difference, as far as TTDP goes, is negligable.

or

b) Build the 2-car set as a single, articulated locomotive.

michael blunck · Post by **michael blunck** » 21 Dec 2005 10:58

As had been discussed in another thread ( http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20337 ) there are four different possibilities to build a MU:

- traditional TTD
- STOP/MORE scheme
- one piece (articulated)
- var60

Personally, for "traditional" MUs I use the first approach which gives the user total freedom in composing the set, but for modern MUs I use alternatives (2) and/or (3) (possibly together with CB 31) to limit e.g. horsepower or number of carriages in a reasonable way. The last method (4) would be a compromise between both methods.

Note however, that with method (3) you cannot refit single carriages e.g. for mail.

regards
Michael

jvassie · Post by **jvassie** » 21 Dec 2005 19:46

Id still say the MORE/STOP method is the best... Just need to find a unique way of doing it... perhaps PLUS/ARRÊT or something similar...

Anyow, i managed to update the Z7300's, the second coach in the pair no longer has a pantograph, does this look better?

Also, so Sanchez and i can make a start on coding, could ALL sprites be posted here please, i think this mainly applies to HT but maybe others...

Thanks

James

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 21 Dec 2005 21:42

Snail wrote:historically, the consists were somewhat mixed, i.e. the 2-wagons couple (engine and trailer) were never decoupled so they kept their original (same) livery, but when 4-car or 6-car unit consists were needed, they just attached the first couple they could find in the yard. So it happened to have different colors.
We might keep the same livery for the whole consist for a certain period of time (say, first 10 years) and then random liveries for each couple until 2000

Ten years from when? When the car was purchased[0]? Or when the consist's engine was purchased? Something else? (If the third, what?)

Remember that, in order for the car-pairs to have the same livery, they depend upon the lead vehicle. Changing the lead vehicle will change the livery/ies.

[0] In this case, you *have* to articulate the pairs, or users could easily end up with pairs of differently colored cars due to them having been built at different times. Also, Cht:Renew changes the purchase date of the wagons.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 21 Dec 2005 22:46

To DaleStan: Well, my idea was using the same livery for all units from 1980-1990, then random livery for each couple from 1990 to 2000. But I see that maybe there's a better way do reach our goal.

So I guess the majority here is for the More/Stop procedure. I don't know whether we should translate the display names; theoretically they should read "Encore" and "Trop" ("More" and "Too many"), but "Encore" is 6-letters so it would probably not fit!

James, your repaint is much better. However, in order to make the trailing car really look unpowered, we could simplify the roof even more, taking out the cooling holes and the raised part in the front: I'll post an example of how a horizontal view should look like. Hope you get the idea. Do you think you could do it for other views too?

As for the sprites, I'd like to post all of the engines ready for coding, but I can't right now (I'm not on my computer!)... maybe I'll be able to do it next week. They were all published earlier in this thread though. Watch out for the models that still require other liveries to be drawn.

Cheers!

jvassie · Post by **jvassie** » 22 Dec 2005 10:26

Here they are Snail, looking better?

Im happy with a more/stop approach, what about you Sanchez and everyone else?

I just asked everyone to post their work so then we can see what repaints need to be done, then its easier to start coding TBH...

James

jvassie · Post by **jvassie** » 23 Dec 2005 16:01

Sorry for the double post, im just gonna ask about some things for coding:

1)Are all the engines able to be dual-headed, if yes ok, if not which ones or none at all?

2)(not really a question)It is impossible to code intro dates before 1920, so all ones before 1920 are at 1920

3)How should i work out if the engines are to be made shorter? And by what percentage?

4)What are the refit costs? ARe there any?

James

Edit: added another question

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 25 Dec 2005 16:35

Much better!

Now the Z7300's are perfect. Thx to HT for drawing the model and James for finalizing it.

As for james' questions;

1) What do you mean by dual headed?
If you mean putting them in multiple traction (i.e. more than one engine pulling the train), then yes, I'd allow this for all the engines in the set. Historically this might not always have been possible, but I think all the efforts required in gathering the info and coding would be too much to justify such a feature. Let's allow multiple traction for all. It would be nice if we allowed electric engines to be pulled by diesels or steamers on non-electrified lines in a "passive" state, i.e. not giving any extra power to the train, but raising the weight. Those engines would only contribute under a catenary.
If you mean push-pull service, then nope, it should be limited to a certain number of locos with the correct coaches. But I think that push-pull trains (i.e. trains with the driving coach at the end, which do not turn around when they need to change direction, like in Locomotion) are (still?) an impossible feature...

2) Ok, then we'll introduce all the early stuff in 1920.

3) Well, can't you just see whether the sprite itself is shorter than usual? For instance, the BB1280 is shorter, and you can see it from the sprite.
Keep also in mind that the real length (which you can find on the spreadsheet) is somewhat reflected in the sprite. In our set, 32 pixels are used by vehicles with a length equal or greater than 21 meters.
If you need any more info, please ask!

4) As for the MU's refit costs, well, theoretically all the MUs should carry passengers by default, and no refit should be possible (maybe the spreadsheet says it differently, but that's the way it should be), with the exception of the X4300 and Z4100. Maybe some MUs could be able to carry tourists though.
Of course, with the MORE/STOP approach (which, I agree, seems to be the best one to choose), one is always able to add pax or mail carriages. Mail carriages will look exactly like pax carriages. The X4300 and Z4100 will be the only exceptions, since they historically had the mail-only model; when refitted to mail, they will adopt a different livery, and will accept mail coaches only (if that's possible).

Hope all this is clear enuff! If you have any other doubts, please ask!

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 28 Dec 2005 01:03

I allow myself a double post

Ladies and germs... meet the 141R!

In other words... the last missing French steamer is drawn!

This engine was shipped from the US and Canada after the end of WWII. As pretty much all countries in Europe, France got devastated by the war and needed some new, cheap rolling stock to rebuild its railway fleet. No domestic manufacturer could cope with the demand, so foreign help was sought. Some American and Canadian locomotive makers, including Baldwin, Lima, and Alco, accepted the challenge. The choice fell upon a Mikado engine, designed some 20 years earlier, that proved to be as sturdy as it was cheap. And so the 141R saw the light...
Some 1340 units were built and shipped on the other side of the Atlantic, where they were heavily used in both passenger and freight services. They were appreciated by the personnel and earned the nickname of "Belle Américaine". They were scrapped in the Seventies, but some units are still preserved and running.

Two liveries were initially planned, but I ended up making four

They include an all-green one, with its characteristic red rods, a green/black one, then a black one with red decoration, and finally a black one with yellow decoration. These four liveries will span all through the model's life and will be available with equal probability.

This is the last of the French steamers that needed to be drawn. But this doesn't mean the steamers are finished. The tank engines and the 230 still require animation, and I will focus on them right away.

Here you get the sprites, the animation, and the mockup. Comments and critics are welcome, especially from artists from North America, where this engine is from!

Enjoy!

Cheers

Snail

jvassie · Post by **jvassie** » 28 Dec 2005 13:50

Holy Cow!

They are awesome! Weel done there Snail, they are beautiful! And thats the steamers done! Wicked!

James

AdRy · Post by **AdRy** » 30 Dec 2005 15:14

is any alpha version or somehting for download? where i can get it? thanks

jvassie · Post by **jvassie** » 30 Dec 2005 16:51

Unfortunately not AdRy! Coding has only just started really, we will have a taster soon i should imagine, but nothing more firm than that im afraid.

On the other hand, you are welcome to come and help us! We are still accepting help from all sides! If you can draw or code or help with research then you could help if you want!

AdRy · Post by **AdRy** » 31 Dec 2005 14:43

thanks for answeting! i'm sorry i don't know anything about coding or drawing....

bu thanks fot the offer

wish you much luck with this preject

bye

Comrade_sanchez · Post by **Comrade_sanchez** » 01 Jan 2006 15:52

Happy new year guys,
Sorry ive been a bit quiet recently but a quiet lazy christmas suddenly became very hectic, although i have made some progress as goes coding the BB61000 has one of its views in the game im just dealing with the callbacks for it at the minute (arrgh callbacks) .
i've just got the first livery of the 2CC2 3400 in game but as with the first version of the BB1280 there are a couple of the flashing pixels on it.
this is on the top livery around the pantos and 2 dots in the centre of the base. it is in every view except l .
I would post a ss but am having trouble catching it well and there are several other things about the train that i havnt fixed yet (offsets, steam etc)
today seems a boring day so i can hopefully make some good progress.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 01 Jan 2006 19:30

Happy new year to you all!!!

Comrade Sanchez, it's great to hear back from you.

Nicely done with the BB61000!
I'm glad to hear your progresses with the 2CC2. As for the flashing pixels, I tried to hunt for them, but a couple of screenshots would really come in handy, just as it was with the BB1280. I'm trying not to use any "forbidden" colors in my current works (that was one of my earliest sprites!

). It's good to know and I'll fix the sprites as soon as I see the screenshots (all the views where they appear would help).

For your enjoyment, here's a couple of engines more than need coding:
- DanMack's awesome BB62000 (thx man!)
- A handful of engines and MUs by Hovering Teacup (262 DB, BB27000, CC7100, CC40100, CC65000, the TAR, the T2000 also called RTG, the X72500, the Z8100, the Z21500 and the Z22500).

This covers all the rolling stock drawn so far and not needing any additional liveries. I hope this will be useful for James, too

We still have many drawn models that require additional liveries. HT is working on some and I might do something about it myself, when I'm done with all the steamers (and not just the French ones).

You'll find the data and the compositions for all this stuff in our Excel file. To James, unluckily I think these sprites do not respect the 5-pixel rule, hope it doesnt' create too much trouble for you...

As for me: the steamers are done

They're not ready for a presentation just yet, as I'm planning to release them in a zipfile with a short readme. But the news is that now all the models are up and animated. Some, like the 040, went through a thorough redesign, as my training with the other models made me discover some incoherences... expect them all soon!

Cheers and happy 2006!

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