Extended Cargo Scheme (ECS) discussion

[Hyronymus]

On itself it's a good idea Wile but I think there is a problem with where you take those goods. Of course, electronic equipment is sold in towns but it would require a new acceptance tag for most of the existing buildings. That is unless you have electronic equipment factories produce goods instead of electronic equipment.

[George]

May I suggest one important industry: electronic? Is it place to add it to list? It could accept glass, copper (so probably copper mill is needed) and plastic (produced in chemical industry or refinery). It could produce electronic products or simply goods.

then we need
- copper ore
- copper ore products
- plastic
- elictronics.
We have only 4 cargo slots free, so, it is not a good idea

[Axlrose]

The flow chart describing how each industry influences the other is excellent. One question though, based upon past games' experiences - will there be a check for at least one source of raw material before the game creates a specialty building? Example, the game creates a glass works building. Yet there are no open pits for sand, so in time the building closes due to lack of industry. This in turn affects the automobile and brewing industries since one part of their required materials are missing.

In regular games, it seems oil becomes a limiting factor early in the game. All too often, some land pump will dry up and leave the refinery short of the required resource. A few years later, this building closes before a few years afterwards, the ocean drills start to arrive. Thus I am then forced to purchase a refinery if I want to drill the ocean waters.

I have had farms and forests get reduced so low with insect investations and other harmful affects that their (lack of) output drove industries to close. Was always pleasant seeing operating costs exceed the profits from these situations.

But overall, the possibilities seem challenging!
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<

[krtaylor]

When we were thinking about industry vectors for the Japanset, we had intended to have an Electronics Plant, which produced Electronics (or goods) which were taken to an exporting facility, like a Customs Warehouse or Port (kind of like RRT). It never went anywhere, but perhaps some future version of the Japanset will have something like that.

[SHADOW-XIII]

George, basing on Cargo_vectors_5.png, my ideas:
(general idea, do not create simple cargoes that just, only, connects 2 industry types, like Ink,Livestock, make more possibilites, Like I've written below)

- why not remove mail & passengers at Oil Rig ?
I know people work there and need to get there but hell then all industries have workers that need to get there
- Oil Rigs needs also machinery, well probably any kind of industry needs machinery
- Printing Works going to bank ? I though Printing Works do newspapers than expensive Paintings
- Cement Works needs more than sand ... any ideas ?
- Oil to Power Plant
- Power Plant produce something, do not leave it alone, Waste would be good (town can some other industry can also produce Waste)
- Ink is so necessary to waste 1 cargo slot ?
- Livestock to Textile Mill ? (or something connected with Leather)
- Valuables replaced by "Money" ?
- Fertilizer goes to forest to !?

[George]

George, basing on Cargo_vectors_5.png, my ideas:
(general idea, do not create simple cargoes that just, only, connects 2 industry types, like Ink,Livestock, make more possibilites, Like I've written below)
- why not remove mail & passengers at Oil Rig ?
I know people work there and need to get there but hell then all industries have workers that need to get there

Why not?

- Oil Rigs needs also machinery, well probably any kind of industry needs machinery

Harvesting industries need them more

- Printing Works going to bank ? I though Printing Works do newspapers than expensive Paintings

Why not?

- Cement Works needs more than sand ... any ideas ?

Lime? One more cargo from pit? Then sand and lime will be parallel cargos

- Oil to Power Plant

Possible

- Power Plant produce something, do not leave it alone,

I'll think about it

Waste would be good (town can some other industry can also produce Waste)

It accepts waste?

- Ink is so necessary to waste 1 cargo slot ?

Unless other cargos are better

- Livestock to Textile Mill ? (or something connected with Leather)

Wool

- Valuables replaced by "Money" ?

What for?

- Fertilizer goes to forest to !?

Possible, but not common

[Hyronymus]

Why are half of all the posts in this topic ignored ?

[michael blunck]

I don´t think we should complicate the scheme, instead we should simplify it.

First of all, TTD is a transportation game, it´s not an economic simulation. This meaning we shouldn´t add each and every product/cargo - although it may be economically important - if it doesn´t add anything interesting to transportation, e.g. it´d be graphical attractive ("electronics" is not, because you cannot identify it, it´ll be only boxes) or it´d need novel interesting freight wagons or its industry or the loading process would be interesting, etc.

Now for the details of your proposal:

> - why not remove mail & passengers at Oil Rig ?
I know people work there and need to get there but hell then all industries have workers that need to get there
- Oil Rigs needs also machinery, well probably any kind of industry needs machinery

That´s true and it´s even true for the supply with energy (coal) and "machinery".

OTOH, the whole game is sort of an abstraction, i.e. if we have to supply all industries with workers, energy and machinery the whole thing would turn very tedious. OTOH, it would make sense to have implemented some of those features for some industries, like CS did it for the oil rig. That makes sense and adds variety to the game. Implementing everything for everything doesn´t make sense to me.

> - Printing Works going to bank ? I though Printing Works do newspapers than expensive Paintings

Originally, "printing works" (in arctic) would produce newspapers and books. Like many other people I´m not sure if it´ll make sense to keep this industry in its actual form.


> - Cement Works needs more than sand ... any ideas ?

I´d like to implement "cement works" needing "sand", "lime stone" and energy ("coal").

> - Oil to Power Plant

That should be OK. Prices and capacities would have to be balanced, though.

> - Power Plant produce something, do not leave it alone,

In reality power plants are producing "sulphur" and "gypsum" (from SO2 removal). Meanwhile, at least in Europe, so much gypsum is produced as a by-product, that there´s no real need for producing it in quarries or pits anymore.

I´d like to have this implemented (at least for sulphur) but because it´s still somewhere exotic, this cargo ("sulphur") is planned to be a ".grf specific" cargo., except a majority of people would like it to be a "standard cargo".

> Waste would be good (town can some other industry can also produce Waste)

I don´t like that feature, especially because town buildings cannot produce anything except passengers and mail. And if someone (possibly Csaba) would implement this into the patch there would be quite a couple of problems with that "cargo".

> - Ink is so necessary to waste 1 cargo slot ?

"Ink" would be a rather insignificant and too specialized cargo. If you think on an additional cargo for the "printing works" that should be "chemical products" ("ink" is a chemical product, BTW).

> - Livestock to Textile Mill ? (or something connected with Leather)

Yes, "leather" could be implemented as a "parallel cargo" (.grf specific) for farms (substituting "textiles").

> - Valuables replaced by "Money" ?

No.

> - Fertilizer goes to forest to !?

Could be, but it´s far-fetched, IMO.

Remember: we don´t want to have as much cargoes as possible, we want to have a small, well-structured scheme of some additional cargoes.

regards
Michael

[SHADOW-XIII]

George, basing on Cargo_vectors_5.png, my ideas:
(general idea, do not create simple cargoes that just, only, connects 2 industry types, like Ink,Livestock, make more possibilites, Like I've written below)
- why not remove mail & passengers at Oil Rig ?
I know people work there and need to get there but hell then all industries have workers that need to get there

Why not?

wasting id's, and if we will have many industries then it will be hader to start, the more connections to easier to start, the more possibilites

- Oil Rigs needs also machinery, well probably any kind of industry needs machinery

Harvesting industries need them more

oh that way, by machinery I though general machines not only those that drive, my mistake

- Printing Works going to bank ? I though Printing Works do newspapers than expensive Paintings

Why not?

someho I see no connection, I though Printing Works print newspaper & magazines, those can be obviously transported to town but to bank ?

- Cement Works needs more than sand ... any ideas ?

Lime? One more cargo from pit? Then sand and lime will be parallel cargos

hmm ... indeed, unless it will be not the same pit, maybe iron ore pit would be usefull to produce anything extra ?

Waste would be good (town can some other industry can also produce Waste)

It accepts waste?

welll, nothing yet accepts waste, it would need creation, but possibilities for waste are great

- Ink is so necessary to waste 1 cargo slot ?

Unless other cargos are better

waste

- Livestock to Textile Mill ? (or something connected with Leather)

Wool

sorry I haven't notice wool, but it could be general "Livestock" that goes to Textile Mill and Food Plant, this way we save another ID

- Valuables replaced by "Money" ?

What for?

instead of valuables, it will better matches "tourists"

- why not remove mail & passengers at Oil Rig ?
I know people work there and need to get there but hell then all industries have workers that need to get there
- Oil Rigs needs also machinery, well probably any kind of industry needs machinery

That´s true and it´s even true for the supply with energy (coal) and "machinery".

OTOH, the whole game is sort of an abstraction, i.e. if we have to supply all industries with workers, energy and machinery the whole thing would turn very tedious. OTOH, it would make sense to have implemented some of those features for some industries, like CS did it for the oil rig. That makes sense and adds variety to the game. Implementing everything for everything doesn´t make sense to me.

indeed, we do not have to add everywhere machinery, but somehow those passengers/mail looks there completly not right, if we are going to change industries this could be also changed

- Printing Works going to bank ? I though Printing Works do newspapers than expensive Paintings

Originally, "printing works" (in arctic) would produce newspapers and books. Like many other people I´m not sure if it´ll make sense to keep this industry in its actual form.

that's what I meant, books & newspapers are nowhere to the bank

- Cement Works needs more than sand ... any ideas ?

I´d like to implement "cement works" needing "sand", "lime stone" and energy ("coal").

maybe energy not exacly something like lime stone would be good

- Power Plant produce something, do not leave it alone, so no plans for general cargo produced by Power Station ? only extra addon one ?

agree


and about cargoes, I think we would need 1 complete structure (maybe with 2-3 free cargo ID's for other sets), while it shouldn't be too specific (like INK) it should allow many connections between industries, like someone (Csaba?) pointed at the beginning of random game with all those extra industries it will be hard to send 1 cargo to it's destination, until it will have many destinations.
The most important of course is to provide those "connections" at 1st (low) level of cargos (like livestock, grain, wood, etc) or at 2nd level, since they are the most important, and (should have like in real life) many purposes for cargo type

[michael blunck]

Shadow-XIII wrote:

> The most important of course is to provide those "connections" at 1st (low)
> level of cargos (like livestock, grain, wood, etc) or at 2nd level, since they
> are the most important, and (should have like in real life) many purposes
> for cargo type

Yes, the scheme already has this functionality. Like in original TTD, cargo/products are on different levels allowing easy beginning with direct delivery and establishing more complex cargo chains during the game.

What I meant with "mesh-like" structure in my OP was that it should be possible to deliver one material/product to different industries. The fine-tuning can be done later by balancing prices.

regards
Michael

[krtaylor]

I suppose it would be totally impossible to allow a vehicle to hold more than one cargo without refitting? That's the way real railroads work. I mean, a train of boxcars will carry one cargo from A to B, then a different cargo from B to C, then a third cargo from C back to A again. I believe the latest version of RRT works this way.

[Patchman]

How would you tell the train which of the available cargo(s) it should load?

[krtaylor]

Well, yes, indeed. I suppose you'd have to have some sort of drop-down in the routing screen, where now you pick Full Load or whatever, to also select which cargo to pick up. From the available cargoes that the train can currently carry, naturally. Like I said, a major change, and probably impossible. It'd be a totally different game, and much more complex.

[Patchman]

Well, Locomotion does do it that way. It has some minor irritations associated with it, such as not being able to easily change the cargo type without adding a full load order at the same time.

Another problem is that not all "compatible" cargos should be available. For example, some of the goods vans may be refittable to food, but that would require adding refrigeration units and so would require actual refitting.

Anyway, as you say it's unlikely that this would happen soon, it would require a rewrite of the entire order system. That's something that would be nice for several other reasons too, but it would still need someone to do it...

[George]

I´d like to implement "cement works" needing "sand", "lime stone" and energy ("coal").

Two much input for the second level industry. I think Lime and sand are enough

Yes, "leather" could be implemented as a "parallel cargo" (.grf specific) for farms (substituting "textiles").

Let's design ONE schema first

I've updated the schema depending on the discussion. I've removed Ink, and added sulphur, but can you suggest some production of chemical plant then fertilizer? The problem with chemical plant that is the 3-d level industry, that means only automobile plant, printing works and towns can accept it's products (other industries can only be affected by it's products)

The second problem is that chemicals are accepted by four industries types. That's too much. Other cargos are distributed to only two destinations. That is ok. So chemicals should be distributed to only three destinations max.

2Csaboka: can we code pits that way that they produce different cargos depending on graphics? They can be lime, sand or both.

[Csaboka]

2Csaboka: can we code pits that way that they produce different cargos depending on graphics? They can be lime, sand or both.

No, unfortunately. If it produces different cargo, it has to be a different type internally. What is possible is an industry that has two cargoes in its "produces" line but doesn't actually produce one of those cargoes (i.e. the production is 0).

[George]

2Csaboka: can we code pits that way that they produce different cargos depending on graphics? They can be lime, sand or both.

No, unfortunately. If it produces different cargo, it has to be a different type internally. What is possible is an industry that has two cargoes in its "produces" line but doesn't actually produce one of those cargoes (i.e. the production is 0).

That is what I mean

[SHADOW-XIII]

The second problem is that chemicals are accepted by four industries types. That's too much. Other cargos are distributed to only two destinations. That is ok. So chemicals should be distributed to only three destinations max.

so remove chemicals to the Paper Mill, just Wood Productions will be enough there

ps.
I still vote to exlude Printings from Bank, we could create other cargo for Banks, like Gold/Copper/Iron (money can be made from various materials), maybe Iron since it has got only 1 way in
and still for excluding mail & passengers from Oil Rig
and my opinion about Wool
I don't how fertilizer comes from town
and since I am against having any cargo with only 1 destination (like Iron Ore, Sulphur, [if]Wool, Wood, Limestone, etc) I am sill thinking about other their usage

[wallyweb]

This new cargo/industry discussion is getting unnecessarily complicated.
Lets simplify the whole approach.
<Proposal>
1. The premise of TTDX is transportation - period!.
2.a. Products/Cargo are transported between four levels.
2.b. Conveyance type is appropriate to the product type.
3. The levels are:
3.a. Source/Resource - No input to generate output.
examples - Wells(includes oil rigs), Mines, Forests, Farms, Plantations, Water Sources, Fishing Grounds, Town Buildings (pax & mail), Banks (valuables etc.), Import, Tourist source
3.a.i. Output transported to Primary Industry for processing.
3.a.ii. Output transported to Secondary Industry for processing.
3.a.iii. Output transported to End User.
3.b. Primary - Requires input to generate output.
examples - Steel Mills, Paper Mills, Refineries(chemicals), Sawmills(woodchips/sawdust)
3.b.i. Output transported to Secondary Industry for processing.
3.c. Secondary - Requires input to generate output.
examples - Food Processing, Factory, Printing Works, Refinery(petrol), Breweries
3.c.i. Output transported to End User.
3.d. End User - Requires input only
examples - Banks, Power Stations, Town Buildings, Tourist Destinations.
3.d.i. No output.

When proposing a new industry include the following chart (example in brackets):
name:(coal mine)
type:(mine)
level:(resource)
input:(n/a)
product:(coal)
conveyance: [rv type(truck), wagon type(gondola), ship type(bulk), airplane type(n/a)]
climate:(all)
destination:(power station, steel mill)
general description:(use your excellent imaginations - perhaps a graphic mock-up - will this proposal be specific to a set? - is it to be a new industry or will it replace an existing industry?)

Note: Depending upon its description, it is acceptable for an industry to exist at more than one level.

When proposing a production chain/vector, do a chart for each level.
Post it in this thread for suitable comments and flames.

Keep in mind: Maximum 37 industries per climate - maximum 3 inputs per industry - maximum 2 outputs per industry.
</Proposal>

Comments/Flames?

[George]

This new cargo/industry discussion is getting unnecessarily complicated.
Lets simplify the whole approach.
<Proposal>
1. The premise of TTDX is transportation - period!.
2.a. Products/Cargo are transported between four levels.

Why four? Not 5, no 3, but four?

2.b. Conveyance type is appropriate to the product type.
3. The levels are:
3.a. Source/Resource - No input to generate output.
examples - Wells(includes oil rigs), Mines, Forests, Farms, Plantations, Water Sources, Fishing Grounds, Town Buildings (pax & mail), Banks (valuables etc.), Import, Tourist source

in your terms Tourists centres are the second level industries

3.a.i. Output transported to Primary Industry for processing.
3.a.ii. Output transported to Secondary Industry for processing.
3.a.iii. Output transported to End User.
3.b. Primary - Requires input to generate output.
examples - Steel Mills, Paper Mills, Refineries(chemicals), Sawmills(woodchips/sawdust)
3.b.i. Output transported to Secondary Industry for processing.
3.c. Secondary - Requires input to generate output.
examples - Food Processing, Factory, Printing Works, Refinery(petrol), Breweries
3.c.i. Output transported to End User.

So the same industry has several levels? Not good

3.d. End User - Requires input only
examples - Banks, Power Stations, Town Buildings, Tourist Destinations.
3.d.i. No output.

Towns have output

When proposing a new industry include the following chart (example in brackets):

It does not change the vector

Comments/Flames?

The last part is unnesesary now

Suggestion
To make temperate and arctic different I suggest to remove wood products line from temperate and leave it in arctic only.