What does a "good" company shares system look like?

[ChillCore]

I'd like to return to this because my mind keeps circling back to these thoughts.

so do we but where is this going??

clearly you have a thought ... which is fine ....
but yeah where ... some stock market thing ... just spill your mind .... please

[odisseus]

Let's try to come up with a set of design constraints upon which we all would agree. In my opinion, a good shares system must have the following properties:

1. It should have a significant effect on the game. Making good decisions on the stock market should improve the financial standing of your company.
2. It should reward investing in companies that eventually become successful.
3. It should have a protection period for fresh companies.
4. It should not allow to generate money out of thin air, even with cooperation between players/companies.
5. It should not allow a super-rich player to rob weaker players out of everything without any compensation.

[pickpacket]

so do we but where is this going??

clearly you have a thought ... which is fine ....
but yeah where ... some stock market thing ... just spill your mind .... please

Uhm. That's pretty much what I've been doing. If there's something specific you'd like me to explain further I'll be happy to.

[jfs]

Let's try to come up with a set of design constraints upon which we all would agree. In my opinion, a good shares system must have the following properties:

1. It should have a significant effect on the game. Making good decisions on the stock market should improve the financial standing of your company.
2. It should reward investing in companies that eventually become successful.
3. It should have a protection period for fresh companies.
4. It should not allow to generate money out of thin air, even with cooperation between players/companies.
5. It should not allow a super-rich player to rob weaker players out of everything without any compensation.

For any of that to be feasible, I'm quite sure you need a bigger world economy that involves more than just the transportation companies building on the map.

More businesses than just the transportation companies need to be traded on the stock market, and actors other than the transportation company players need to trade the stocks.

[pickpacket]

For any of that to be feasible, I'm quite sure you need a bigger world economy that involves more than just the transportation companies building on the map.

More businesses than just the transportation companies need to be traded on the stock market, and actors other than the transportation company players need to trade the stocks.

And that way lies madness and infinite money exploits...

[pickpacket]

I've had a thought in the past few days. A shares system similar in simplicity to the old one, but maybe better? I dunno.

1. Company Bravo has 10 shares, each valued at maybe 10% (?) of the current company's value.
2. A competitor (Company Echo) can buy one or more shares, but not sell them.
3. Bravo can buy the shares back, priced after Bravo's current company value. Echo receives this money.
4. If Bravo is fully bought out all shareholders get the value of their shares, valued after Bravo's current company value.

- Buying shares is an actual investment that can go up or down in value. You get your money's worth either when the shares are bought back or the company is bought out/goes bankrupt.
- I don't see any way to generate infinite money with this. Do you?
- Bravo doesn't get any money when shares are sold. I figured that if that were the case the shares would just bounce back and forth between Bravo and Echo. However this problem still exists since Echo gets money when Bravo buys the shares back. Any suggestions to discourage this behaviour are welcome.

I did a bit of research yesterday and I believe I can achieve most of this (maybe all) via game scripts. That seems a better solution for this particular version of a shares trading system.

[Auge]

Hello

Let's try to come up with a set of design constraints upon which we all would agree. In my opinion, a good shares system must have the following properties:

1. It should have a significant effect on the game. Making good decisions on the stock market should improve the financial standing of your company.
2. It should reward investing in companies that eventually become successful.
3. It should have a protection period for fresh companies.
4. It should not allow to generate money out of thin air, even with cooperation between players/companies.
5. It should not allow a super-rich player to rob weaker players out of everything without any compensation.

First and foremost, it should be the player's decision whether he wants to participate in the stock market with his company or not. If not, the player has the normal credit line of the game; if he does, he can acquire additional capital. That's how it works in the real world and that's how it should work in the game (if implemented at all).

Tschö, Auge

[ChillCore]

so do we but where is this going??

clearly you have a thought ... which is fine ....
but yeah where ... some stock market thing ... just spill your mind .... please

Uhm. That's pretty much what I've been doing. If there's something specific you'd like me to explain further I'll be happy to.

so yeah ... like where does the fun part come in? gameplay wise

like i don't want to shoot down your idea but .... even if it may seem so ...

I did a bit of research yesterday and I believe I can achieve most of this (maybe all) via game scripts. That seems a better solution for this particular version of a shares trading system.

Cool ... more optional choices is good

[odisseus]

In my opinion, a good shares system must have the following properties:
...

For any of that to be feasible, I'm quite sure you need a bigger world economy that involves more than just the transportation companies building on the map.

More businesses than just the transportation companies need to be traded on the stock market, and actors other than the transportation company players need to trade the stocks.

Not necessarily. In fact, I've just had an idea how to satisfy all these constraints in a minimalist way.

1. Buying a fraction of the company's stocks will give the buyer a corresponding fraction of the company's profits. If the profit is negative, the stock holder receives nothing.
2. The shares can be bought only if the company owner offers them for sale. The company owner decides how much of the total stock he wants to offer, in the increments of, say, 10%.
3. Whenever stocks are bought and sold, the deal money go directly to the seller's account. Thus it becomes a viable way to quickly raise funds for large construction projects.
4. The company owner can buy his shares back at any time.
5. The price of shares should depend not on the value of company's assets, but exclusively on its forecast profits over the next few years. This is the crucial change that prevents easy ways of price manipulation.

Note that I haven't mentioned the possibility of company takeover, because that is a separate issue. My system can be extended to allow takeovers, but it would work equally well without that option.

[pickpacket]

so yeah ... like where does the fun part come in? gameplay wise

I think that a last man standing scenario is fun. I think that all proposals for return-on-investment, dividends, shareholder influence, profit projections, etc that I've heard offer more complexity and risk of exploits than they offer anything substantially different in the game -- or even an incentive to actually use it.

But that's just what I think Since that's my opinion I feel that I have presented how the fun part comes in. It's perfectly fine that we don't agree about what's fun

Cool ... more optional choices is good

Yes. If it can be a GS it should be a GS. Maximum choice, minimum burden. And I can have things my way without it bothering anyone else It looks to me like we can't agree on what a system implemented in the core game should look like anyway

[ChillCore]

But that's just what I think Since that's my opinion I feel that I have presented how the fun part comes in.

Fair enaough

It's perfectly fine that we don't agree about what's fun

we can agree on that xD




in my mind shares add nothing much to the game ... gameplay wise:
- you buy them with moneyz you do not care about and they make money for you , if all goes right ....
- there is no penalty for bad years where the company loses money ... you only get penalised when you sell during a bad year where the stock is lower valuated than it was when you bought it
- other than that that ??


I mean take GTAV's shares market ... yes you can make a lot of moneyz by buying and selling at the right moment (the missions where you influence the stock market) but other than that?
^^^ you can still 'play the market' outside of the timeframe of these missions but ... once you figure out the highs and lows... no much fun to be had ... again gameplay wise



EDIT:
talking about GTAV"s stock market ... it is not even available in online games ... only in SP ...
I wonder why but not really .... shark cards anyone? ...

[ChillCore]

that being said ... would be nice to see someone come up with something working someday in regards of stocks that does not boil down to who has the biggest wiener....

optionally as some cultures/religions don't mix well with a tax on laans ...as in; "I'll borrow you one hundred and don't even suggest to give me back 101 or more ... "

[odisseus]

The money paid by the buyer should go to the seller's bank account. Without this condition, share trading will be pretty much useless indeed.

[Mifczu]

1. Buying a fraction of the company's stocks will give the buyer a corresponding fraction of the company's profits. If the profit is negative, the stock holder receives nothing.

You shouldn't get a percentage of the profits. You should make money by selling the stock at a higher price. The dividend option in the game makes no sense.

1. The shares can be bought only if the company owner offers them for sale. The company owner decides how much of the total stock he wants to offer, in the increments of, say, 10%.
2. Whenever stocks are bought and sold, the deal money go directly to the seller's account. Thus it becomes a viable way to quickly raise funds for large construction projects.
3. The company owner can buy his shares back at any time.

1. The price of shares should depend not on the value of company's assets, but exclusively on its forecast profits over the next few years. This is the crucial change that prevents easy ways of price manipulation.

(Profit from last year * 10 (option in settings) but not less than 0) + value of company's assets

Additionally, the option to buy and sell at one percent and not 25% as in the original

[uzurpator]

Some of you need to play RT3. Its stock market, and other financial tools, are perfect.

Here are some tips:
1. Company _decides_ to issue stock up to a % of company value.
2. Money from stock sold goes _to_ the issuer.
3. If the company decides to issue more than 50% of its stock, it is opening itself to a hostile takeover. HT may be On/Off option for multiplayer.
4. Company may pay dividends to stockholders at a rate the CEO decides. Paying dividends may offer some global boon to the company.
5. A hidden "minor stockholders" entity that slowly buys stock of companies may be introduced. Shares bought by this entity may be bought back at inflated rate.

But overall - just play RT3

[jfs]

I remember in Railroad Tycoon 1, your company is initially funded (at game start) by in part issuing bonds, for half the starting cash, and selling company stock for the other half of the starting cash. All of the issued stock is them owned by the general public, and the companies in play (including your own) can start buying it back at the market rate. Cities can offer to invest in your company when you establish a station in them, where you issue new stock which is purchased by the general public.

[odisseus]

Some of you need to play RT3. Its stock market, and other financial tools, are perfect.

If it's proven to work and it's not overly complicated, I'm all for it. By the way, how does the game determine the company value and the price of stocks?

[uzurpator]

If it's proven to work and it's not overly complicated, I'm all for it. By the way, how does the game determine the company value and the price of stocks?

I don't know the details, because It's been years since I played it, decades even, and RT3 does not work reliably on modern hardware. However here is the gist of it.

1. The CEO and the company are two distinct entities. You can even start multiple companies if you so choose, unless a scenario forbids it. CEO has a starting capital of X, which is debt-free.
2. When starting a company, you can choose how much CEO's and outside capital to use. This sets what % of stock the CEO will own. Usually it is about 10% to 90% CEO/Outside
3. Only CEO can buy or sell stock in his name. CEO gets a salary every year from the companies he runs.
4. If the share price goes above a certain value from its base, then a stock split happens, where the number of shares in circulation goes up by a factor of X and the share price drops by a factor of X. That way, the game makes sure that the stock price per share does not go too high. I think a merge can happen as well, but I honestly don't remember.
5. Company book value, as far as I can tell, is [value of all assets + cash on hand - debts].
6. CEO can buy stock at any time ( either with his cash, or on credit ) in lots of, I think 1000. Each purchase increases stock price temporarily ( for a few months ), from where it tapers off back to its base. Likewise - each time a sale happens, the stock price drops temporarily and then tapers off to the base price.
7. The game tracks the number of stocks in circulation by having an "Outside Investors" as sink.
8. Company can buy stock back, which bumps its price, and issue stock, which dilutes it. Only stock owned by "Outside investors" can be bought back, and the less of it there is, the more expensive it gets. There are also limits on stock issuing - i think it can be done no more often than once per year and no more than 10% of company value.

There are no loans in RT3. Borrowing money is done via Bonds - which are, essentially, the same, but _must_ be bought back when they are due. However.
1. Bonds have interest based on the company bond rating at the moment of issue. Rating - top to bottom is AAA, AA, A, BBB, B, B, C, and Junk.
2. Each bond taken lowers bond rating and increases the interest rate.
3. Bond rating is also tied to company performance, but I don't recall how.
4. Bonds, I think, have a 10-year repurchase period.
5. A company can issue any number of bonds, provided it has the rating and assets to pay the interest.

---

In context of TTD, from the top of my head.

1. We don't make a distinction between CEO and their company, treating them as one entity.
2. The company starts with one $100.000 bond and "loan interest rate" of, well, interest rate and 20 year repurchase time ( difficulty setting(?))
3. The company starts with AA bond rating ( after all, one bond is taken )
4. The company owns 100% of its stock.

During the game

1. The CEO may issue bonds, or opt-in to issue stock.
2. Bonds or stock issued are slowly bought by "Outside Investors", providing a steady stream of capital for the company.
3. As long as it is available, other players may also buy such bonds and/or stock.
4. When issuing stock - we can assume $1 of company value is 1 share, and the company may try to inflate this when issuing stock at, say, +20% of its value. The more over-/under-valued stock is, the slower/faster it sells to outside investors.
4a. initial issue _sets_ stock value, subsequent issuing _dilute_ it, buying stock back increase it.
5. On stock market - companies can buy back their own stock and bonds ( buying bonds early incurs extra cost ) and can buy stock and bonds of other companies. Provided some is for sale (essentially, some is held by "outside investors" or other players offered it for sale )
6. Each time stock is purchased, its value is bumped up and tapers off over time. Likewise, each time stock is sold its value drops and slowly goes up over time.
7. A company may be bought and taken over if a single entity has more than 50% of its shares. If it happens to a player by an AI in single player, its game over. In multiplayer, they are bumped to spectators and can start a new company.