[OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

[Transportman]

Some time ago (like 6 months and almost 30 pages ago), there was some discussion regarding a regional parameter. With this set currently in beta, it is time to get stuff done in this department.

Currently, there are 295 vehicles in this set (excluding 147 wagons and coaches, which might also get a regional parameter treatment). With the additional 171 vehicles Voyager One has drawn, the total will be 466 Engines/MUs/Metros/Railbusses/Maglevs. I sorted out how many vehicles of each type are/will be available for each country and a very rough region selection (see this sheet). I think that rough selection is quite good, especially if we can get some more vehicles for the regions that are a bit low on the amount of vehicles, but Europe needs to be split in several regions and Asia might also need to be split (especially when the additional vehicles are added).

If people have suggestions on how to split Europe (and possibly Asia) in a way that gives reasonable numbers and is also simple to explain to players, let me know.

[Voyager One]

We've already seen this suggestion:

Europe1.PNG (92.92 KiB) Viewed 1685 times

I'd make one small change on that one - France into the Mediterranean region and joining North and West Europe - like this:

Europe2.PNG (92.76 KiB) Viewed 1685 times

[Roslav]

We've already seen this suggestion:

Europe1.PNG

I'd make one small change on that one - France into the Mediterranean region and joining North and West Europe - like this:

Europe2.PNG

I dont want to be "realism gnome", but I'd separate Poland, CZ, SR, Hungaria and Romania from other eastern block countries, because they use different gauges than countries from Ukraine eastwards.

[ISA]

If I understand that map correctly I would remove Baltic states form rest of the Scandinavia... Most of the time we did spent in the USSR and Scandinavia did its own thing

[Eddi]

i could see it work like this:

• eastern europe, broad gauge (russia, ukraine, baltic states, finland)
• eastern europe, standard gauge (poland, czechia, hungary, east germany)
• western europe, north (england, scandinavia, west germany, netherlands)
• western europe, south (france, switzerland, spain, italy, austria, former yugoslavia)

split in more than 4 options is probably not necessary. but if you split in 5, i'd probably split into southeast (austria, hungary, balkan) and southwest (italy, france, switzerland, spain)

[andythenorth]

Ho ho, Britain in Europe? Highly controversial.

[Purno]

We've already seen this suggestion:

Europe1.PNG

I like.

I'd make one small change on that one - France into the Mediterranean region and joining North and West Europe - like this:

Europe2.PNG

Once you start making changes, everybody will have different opinions. To prevent an endless discussion while you know you can't keep everyone satisfied, I'd just stick with some division that any official world-wide organization uses.

[Voyager One]

I dont want to be "realism gnome", but I'd separate Poland, CZ, SR, Hungaria and Romania from other eastern block countries, because they use different gauges than countries from Ukraine eastwards.

We don't differentiate gauges in this set so this is not a valid argument IMO.

If I understand that map correctly I would remove Baltic states form rest of the Scandinavia... Most of the time we did spent in the USSR and Scandinavia did its own thing

Actually, this was a mistake I've just realized. My CORRECTED suggestion is below...

Europe2.PNG (92.76 KiB) Viewed 1608 times

@Eddi - same as #1 - no gauge differentiation plus we ignore non-existant countries (e.g. East Germany). Also, Austria and Switzerland could NEVER be in the Mediterranean area IMO.

Also, 3 Euro-regions are more than enough IMO. We must also consider the new OTTD feature of hiding vehicles that Transportman mentioned before - you can always hide some more vehicles.

Ho ho, Britain in Europe? Highly controversial.

What about Scotland in the UK?

Once you start making changes, everybody will have different opinions. To prevent an endless discussion while you know you can't keep everyone satisfied, I'd just stick with some division that any official world-wide organization uses.

This is true but France should be in the south region IMO.

[Transportman]

Also, 3 Euro-regions are more than enough IMO. We must also consider the new OTTD feature of hiding vehicles that Transportman mentioned before - you can always hide some more vehicles.

With 3 regions for Europe, the average would be 80 engines per Euro-region (including those additional vehicles you've drawn). A bit high, but I think acceptable if they would be distributed equally. But there is a huge amount of trains in North/West Europe, while the south and east are a bit low. Approximately they are 6:2:1 (178:55:32). Then the official 4-region distribution would be more even, but still favoring Western Europe in number of vehicles.

But that is mainly because Germany adds quite a number of vehicles and the other countries in that region also add a decent number each, so I doubt on how much we can shuffle there.

[Voyager One]

I've just thought of another idea but I don't know if it can be done and how complex would it be to do it... And this should/could be done only for Europe because of the vast number of vehicles involved.

Idea in brief: splitting Europe as in my suggestion but also allowing players to choose which countries to use.

More in details:
"Europe" is split into regions but a player could also choose (WITHIN THE CHOSEN REGION) which countries to use and which ones to "shut down". I've counted all European countries that we have in this set and they are exactly 30. That would mean 30 switches for on/off...


Example #1:
You choose the south area and you can also turn off e.g. France while keeping the others.

Example #2:
You choose the south and the west area and get vehicles for both. Now you disable e.g. Germany and Poland and you remain with all south and west vehicles except those two countries.

Example #3:
You choose all regions of Europe but you can turn off some countries.


EDIT:
Countries in BLACK color are not represented in the set.

[Purno]

The regional parameter is something that has been desired for years, something we discussed even at the start of the project. I'd hate to see the regional parameter delayed by a discussion about how to divide Europe. Therefor I'd like to suggest one of the following options;

OPTION 1
Divide the world in the clear continents that we have, keeping Europe as a whole for now. Code-wise, make it easy to split Europe later.

OPTION 2
Divide Europe quick and dirty, not awaiting further discussion. We can always change the parts of Europe in a future version.

Either of these options will prevent the regional parameter feature being delayed because of a discussion on Europe. I fear that the Europe discussion could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on

[Voyager One]

Divide Europe quick and dirty

Speaking for myself, I'm OK with that too. Honestly, I don't see myself using any regional parameters ever, I want it ALLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!

[Eddi]

Austria and Switzerland could NEVER be in the Mediterranean area IMO.

then why do they measure heights above the adriatic sea, instead of the north sea or baltic sea, like germany and other northern countries?

[Wahazar]

All these regional options - is it possible to choose, for example, two?

[Voyager One]

All these regional options - is it possible to choose, for example, two?

Of course. 1, 2, 3... all...

Austria and Switzerland could NEVER be in the Mediterranean area IMO.

then why do they measure heights above the adriatic sea, instead of the north sea or baltic sea, like germany and other northern countries?

They do? Didn't know that. But still... the Alpes should be some kind of regional border, shouldn't they? Italy is south of the Alpes, France is mostly south and west but these two are more north than south IMO...

[Transportman]

I've just thought of another idea but I don't know if it can be done and how complex would it be to do it... And this should/could be done only for Europe because of the vast number of vehicles involved.

I think it will be to complex.

OPTION 1
Divide the world in the clear continents that we have, keeping Europe as a whole for now. Code-wise, make it easy to split Europe later.

OPTION 2
Divide Europe quick and dirty, not awaiting further discussion. We can always change the parts of Europe in a future version.

Changing will always be possible. How I will code it is that for every region an if-statement is #defined and that #define takes the place of the climate-property of a vehicle. Adding new regions is easy, just add the parameter and #define and change the vehicles that should be in that region. I'll stick to the official regions as first go, refining is always possible.

All these regional options - is it possible to choose, for example, two?

You will be able to choose any combination of regions, except of course the No regions combination.

[Voyager One]

Wait a second! We're doinbg something wrong...

Who says one country MUST be in one region only? We have Turkey in Europe and Asia. We have Russia in Europe and Asia. Probably others too...

So... take a look at this below - balancing the number of vehuicles between 3 regions.

Germany can be also added to the east because of the former East Germany, giving east more engines. And as Eddie has said, Austria and Switzerland could be also added to the south, giving south more engines.

P.S. I'm definitely better at drawing trains than drawing lines on this map...

[Purno]

Good job Voyager. You've just made the Europe division even more complex

[Voyager One]

No I didn't. It's the same map from above but Germany, Austria and Switzerland get placed into two regions instead of just one.

[Eddi]

that's a good idea. i'd probably also put france into two regions.