Photo Of The Month - September 2012 Entries

[doktorhonig]

Here's my submission. It's the construction site of Vienna's main train station.
EDIT: it's a pano, hope that's ok.

[Ameecher]

Ha that's changed a fair bit since I was there! It was a still largely in tact when I was there in 2010.

[Geo Ghost]

EDIT: it's a pano, hope that's ok.

Brilliant photo!
No worries at all. Like I said, there's no rule against them
The only place they'd be disallowed if there's pano shots which are very obviously and poorly stitched together from a load of photos. Though anyone who has done them seems to do them in a professional manner so no worries there

[doktorhonig]

Ha that's changed a fair bit since I was there! It was a still largely in tact when I was there in 2010.

The picture is already 5 months old. Maybe I should take a new one.

Concerning the stitching: If the pictures are taken properly, ICE works very well and only minor adjustments are necessary.

[andel]

Here's my submission. It's the construction site of Vienna's main train station.
EDIT: it's a pano, hope that's ok.

Did you take it as a Pano or stitch it? If stitched, then its not allowed under the rule of "no photoshopping".

My concern is that for the second month in a row, we have to "zoom" in on a photograph. It kind of detracts from the point of the photo competition - composure, subject, taking a photograph because of the subject, not multitudes of photos to fit the subject.

We originally said no editing to stop a photograph being edited beyond recognition - after all the idea was to share what was seen through the lens, one click, not building a range of clicks or changing the colours to remove all bar the colour on a train - it was about the subject that a photographer had captured.

If people don't agree, then that is fair enough, but then I wonder if its a level playing field suddenly - am I just competing my eye and trusty lens vs a kid with an iPhone and a copy of photoshop?

[Voyager One]

IMO, we do have a problem with this. The rule says:

"Photoshopping"/editing of images is not permitted. Basic colour correction is allowed (such as black & white, sepia, etc.) so long as it is not over-the-top. Watermarks are permitted if your photos have them providing they are small and not intrusive.

IMO even the automatic camera stitching into a panorama is kind of "editing". Maybe not done manually but still done, by a machine.

I agree with Andel, it should be about the photographer's eye and a "sense for picture", not about who has the better machine (camera). I have a puny camera and I can't do wonders with it, I also sometimes feel I compete against machines.

Just my penny...

[Geo Ghost]

People are quite divided on that it seems them. If the photos are taken specifically for panoramic use and put together using software built for doing that, I don't see a problem.
It's only if general pictures are poorly stitched together unprofessionally that they;ll not be allowed.

As I said before though, they are permitted for now until we work something out for that one. At the moment, views are too divided to easily come to a solution.

[orudge]

Did you take it as a Pano or stitch it? If stitched, then its not allowed under the rule of "no photoshopping".

If the end result is the same, should it matter?

I would agree that actually editing the content of the photo (e.g., removing things from it, changing colours, etc) shouldn't be allowed, but I don't see that creating a panoramic photo is quite the same, assuming the only thing done is copying one photo and sticking it next to the other so that they match up.

If people don't agree, then that is fair enough, but then I wonder if its a level playing field suddenly - am I just competing my eye and trusty lens vs a kid with an iPhone and a copy of photoshop?

Can photos taken on iPhones not be good? One doesn't necessarily need fancy equipment to take a good picture.

[planetmaker]

I would agree that actually editing the content of the photo (e.g., removing things from it, changing colours, etc) shouldn't be allowed, but I don't see that creating a panoramic photo is quite the same, assuming the only thing done is copying one photo and sticking it next to the other so that they match up.

Sorry, stitching is even beyond the level of editing than changing colour or cropping a photo. Colour correction is something done automatically by cheap point-and-click cameras while the semi-professional and professional cameras explicitly leave that to the user by allowing to adjust colour (e.g. light temperature setting etc) to the user in the post-processing stage - which is a normal part of the conversion process from the raw format to the jpg which I can present here only anyway.

Further stitching photos together always includes a colour processing and possibly a correction for image distortion in order to make photos different light levels and perspectives match. That is a technique or algorithm which is *far* more complicate than to just change the meaning of the colour bits related to the single pixels; it also means to change the position of possibly all pixels and re-calculate colours depending on adjacent pixels.

Cropping of all these processes is the least invasive - it just removes some unwanted parts of the image completely without altering anything in the remainder.

All this said, I personally think that disallowing light temperature adjustment or colour gradation curves or cropping or stitching are not really image manipulation; they keep the photos as a whole. It's different if you then start removing stains or people or whatever elements don't suit you, adding clouds in the sky for better panorama etc where you really change the image *information*.

EDIT: e.g. is this photoshopped just on grounds that colour was removed?
Which is the "real" colour? This? Or this?
Neither actually... it's a HDR composition from three digital images. It might have been feasible to obtain the same result on chemical film due to its logarithmic sensitivity curve as opposed to the linear sensitivity curve from CMOS or CCD; but stacking images is certainly that's way less processing that stitching images *next* to eachother. Would I be allowed to present if, if my camera had an in-built HDR mode?

In summary: allowing the in-built image processing capability of cheap consumer products while disallowing the use of the same algorithms on the computer for people using (semi-)professional-grade photography gear is stupid. And allowing well photoshopped and processed images but not allowing poorly edited images as geoghost suggests kind renders the rules about editing into absurdities like "don't edit, but if you do, do it well"

[Voyager One]

@Planetmaker - So you're actually suggesting absolutely no editing, not even built-in camera editing? Or did I get it wrong?

[Geo Ghost]

Colour correction/adjustment is permitted and always has been. Provided it's reasonable of course. If someone started replacing blues with reds, greens with yellows, etc.. that's a whole different ball game.
As for photoshopping/editing, that rule applies more to adding and taking things out of the actual photo as I've always believed. Such as you can't add things into a photo that aren't actually there, or take things out of a picture and completely changing it in such a way. Panoramics are merely an extension of the photo. There's nothing 'added' or taken away that wasn't there when the photo(s) were taken. It is simply combining two or more pictures together.
That whole "Don't edit, but if you do, do it well" thing is silly. Don't misquote me and turn what I say into something totally different. I'm not here or in this to receive such.
As I said, Panorama's are currently allowed so long as they are done properly and to a good standard. Obviously they won't be allowed if photos have been thrown together and don't even line up - which I stated before.

Panoramas - Permitted, providing they are done properly.
Colour Correction - Permitted, providing it's not something ridiculous and obscene as stated on the first like.
Watermarks/credit - Permitted so long as they are small and do not detract from or intrude on the actual images
Editing/photoshopping - If different from the above two, disallowed. Taking things out, or adding things to a photo isn't allowed. Same with super-imposing other things onto a photo that were not there in real life.

Just use common sense. No one has brought up the editing thing before.
This is meant to be a fun little competition. Anyone can enter regardless of whether you have a professional DSLR, a compact camera, or if your taking a picture on a phone. There are now awards or anything for this, it's just for fun and to share photos in a competitive manner. It's not here to argue over little things that can be answered with a bit of common sense and intuition.

Here's my submission. It's the construction site of Vienna's main train station.
EDIT: it's a pano, hope that's ok.

My concern is that for the second month in a row, we have to "zoom" in on a photograph.

I don't agree with having to zoom in on doktorhonig's photo. The transport nature of the photo is perfectly obvious by the fact there's a station building taking up a good 2/3rds of the image. Last month I will agree that a couple were ridiculous when we had to try and spot a road in the corner of the photo.
I'm assuming that's what you mean by zooming in on a photo. Correct me if I am mistaken

If people don't agree, then that is fair enough, but then I wonder if its a level playing field suddenly - am I just competing my eye and trusty lens vs a kid with an iPhone and a copy of photoshop?

To be fair, I think that's a fair balance. If you have one person with a professional DSLR+lenses and then someone with an iphone or compact camera (for example) then it becomes very unbalanced and a bit unfair to those with less equipment available to them or even those who may not take photos professionally, but just for the fun of it. The latter shouldn't feel they can't compete with the former Otherwise not everyone will be enjoying themselves entering and competing

[doktorhonig]

Did you take it as a Pano or stitch it? If stitched, then its not allowed under the rule of "no photoshopping".

I stitched it. But I asked in last month's thread, since there has already been a pano, which hasn't been accepted due to other reasons.

If people don't agree, then that is fair enough, but then I wonder if its a level playing field suddenly - am I just competing my eye and trusty lens vs a kid with an iPhone and a copy of photoshop?

On the other hand: if you have a fine scene, which fits the topic well, but needs either an expensive wide-angle lens and a dslr or stitching, then stitching a pano is an alternative for people without expensive photography gear.

The colours of my photo have not been changed by the stitching application, because I took all images with fixed settings.

edit: Concerning the "zooming": You don't have to zoom, you CAN do it. I could just reduce the resolution, and you'd see an image with an unusual aspect ratio. You still don't have to look for the subject at the horizon.

[61653]

Tbf, we all vote on the photos at the end of the month. So how about simply having a rule that requires users to declare exactly what post-editing has been done on their submission. Each voter will have his/her own opinion on what they consider to be reasonable and will vote accordingly.

[Geo Ghost]

Few more days to go. Anyone who wants to enter, I suggest you do so soon

My entry for this month is something I took the other day in Fratton. Looking out from the bridge towards Fratton Traincare/maintenance depot.

0912POTM_Geo Ghost.JPG

Tracks leading into Fratton Traincare Depot

(2.87 MiB) Downloaded 4 times

[Jacko]

been there!
(well sort of )

[Dave]

Please allow me to change my entry... As I like the idea of depots and have a better photo than the rubbish one I already posted.

On April 2 2009, I toured Lancashire with a county Day Ranger. This shot, taken from the footbridge at Kirkdale, shows Kirkdale TMD - one of Merseyrail's main depots. A number of rail staff are inspecting the track near the train washer, whilst 507020 arrives at the station, which was refurbished in 2000.

[Geo Ghost]

I quite liked your photo before Dave
Not to say I don't like the current one at all of course. Just didn't think the previous one was rubbish though by any sense of the word.

[Badger]

I've walked round Kirkdale depot.

[andel]

I've had some time to think about this.

A photo is about composure - selecting a subject and capturing that moment. You can do it on a point and shoot or an SLR - but the outcome is the subject.

A panoramic at such detail that is stitched is not a photo - its many, many photos. As beautiful as some of them are (and don't get me wrong, I really like them) I don't feel that they have a place in a Photo of the Month competition - because you've not taken one photo of a subject - you've taken lots of photos of the subject. If you have to do that in order to capture your subject, you have to ask - is this the photo that you should submit.

When we drafted the rules in the first competition, this was the bit I didn't want to cloud or cause upset - because as some users here feel now, they don't have a shot at winning, not because their photo isn't any good (and I feel the standard is always high, dragged down by my submission!) but because, like I've said, there is image manipulation. And whether you like it or not, stitching images together is image manipulation.

We allowed brightness and contrast adjustment because sometimes, it can't be helped - we are but reasonable avatars. But we said no messing with the colours because you began to enter into a "photoshop" or image manipulation competition.

Perhaps, after this months voting (because it isn't fair to those who have submitted so far to change the rules at the late stage of a competition) we need to revisit this issue. Otherwise, I as a photographer don't feel its right for me to enter - not because of someone's skills in photoshop but because I feel I'm not submitting into a photographic competition but instead an "Image Composition" contest. It's fine if that is what you want it to become - but instead then, you label it as such and we move forward in a clearer light (photoshopped, of course!)

I don't wish to detract from some of the wonderful imagery users submit. I've seen some simply brilliant images and submissions. But I want a level playing field - where it is someone's composition being judged.

Best,

Andel