Rail Franchises

[Chris]

Alan stop quoting £60 billion for HS2, it is currently quoted at £32 billion for London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. I seriously doubt the figure will inflate to twice the budget, as HS1 was built under budget.

[Ameecher]

I don't see what is so unacceptable about having the train reverse in Birmingham.

The reason current expresses stop in lots of places is because that's the only way those places get the service that they need. Consequently they're absolutely wedged.

[Dave]

But they're not on the route for HS2 - and I would hope the people who were paying would appreciate that HS2 in those towns would give them four trains per hour into Euston on classic lines.

Northampton currently has 3 trains per hour to London; if you free up capacity on the West Coast by moving express services to HS2, then you can provide semi-express services from Northampton.

Watford, Northampton, Milton Keynes, Liverpool, Preston, Glasgow, Bedford, Stoke, Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield are without a doubt big enough to have HS2 stations.

Out of all of these, the only places big enough to have a High Speed Rail station are Liverpool and Glasgow. I'm sorry Alan, but for the 20th time, the other places just wouldn't have the demand there. I mean Preston and Bedford!? Are you real!?

[Dave]

LGV Sud-Est - 409km (254mi) long.
Number of intermediate stops: 3.

Alan's plan for HS2 to Manchester - (at least) 200mi
Number of planned intermediate stops: 10.

So - let's ask ourselves; with the French TGV being one of the most successful civil engineering projects in the western world, what approach should we go with? France DELIBERATELY avoided Dijon to make the route shorter and quicker, and Alan DELIBERATELY wants to go through towns for.. er.. something.

[Dave]

I don't see what is so unacceptable about having the train reverse in Birmingham.

The reason current expresses stop in lots of places is because that's the only way those places get the service that they need. Consequently they're absolutely wedged.

If there was a though station at Central Birmingham, ther would be more services from Birmingham to the North and more services from London to Birmingham

Why would there? Why would it make ANY difference whether the station was at one end of a triangle spur or a through station? EXPLAIN

[GurraJG]

Alan still hasn't understood the concept of high-speed rail, has he? Stopping ten times on a 200 mile route isn't going to make it a high-speed railway, it's going to make it a slightly-faster-than-currently railway.

[Ameecher]

I like the notion that Watford and Northampton are badly served. Has he not heard of London midland?

[Dave]

Excluding the Virgin service from Wolverhampton (which is set down only), between 11 and 12 Watford has EIGHT!!! Trains to London Euston. EIGHT!

(Northampton has three in the same timeframe. Three trains per hour to the capital is more than enough for a town of Northampton's size)

[Dave]

Yes I am willing to spend billions to add extra services from Birmingham to the North and London and extra services from London to the North.

ANSWER ME. WHY IS A THROUGH STATION BETTER FOR SERVICES.

[Dave]

I plan to replace WCML/MML Intercity services with services on HS2, its a bad idea to spend £60+ billion on a railway that only going to replace "some" Intercity Express services

Don't talk wet - the MML and WCML will still have "express" services for the towns not big enough to have a HS2 station. New Street - International - Coventry - Rugby - Northampton - Milton Keynes - Watford - London : there's your service on classic lines.

London - Birmingham : there's your HSR service.

It's simple: THE DEMAND ONLY EXISTS AT END-TO-END CONNECTIONS. BUSINESSMEN DON'T GO TO BEDFORD AND LUTON!

[Dave]

there is no wayyou can spend £60 Billion on a line with 4 stations

Yes there is - because THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

The money they are investing in the new line will free up more than half of the capacity on the WCML which will allow for intensive service to existing stations on classic lines - which would render your bizarre proposals redundant anyway.

Alan, how many times do you need to be told? By putting the majority (nearly all) express end-to-end services on High Speed Rail, you're taking away almost 75% of the traffic on the classic lines - so you can then provide 5-7tph from every existing station to London.

[GurraJG]

Stopping so often will slow the whole thing down and make it only marginally faster than the current services! How hard is that for you to understand!??

[Dave]

Under my plan, instead of some ending at Central Birmingham and some past it on their way up North (along with some trains from the north either going to Central Birmingham or Central London), all will start from Central London and pass Central Birmingham and all will go up north!

But Virgin have seen insane growth using this system for the last 15 years!

[Dave]

I like the notion that Watford and Northampton are badly served. Has he not heard of London midland?

Last time I checked they don't do Intercity services

So? They provide a semi-fast service to London from Birmingham, Rugby and Northampton. Virgin don't serve Northampton because - get this - there's low demand for it.

You've got a ridiculous view that the every town needs an express service every 15 minutes to London. Do you not understand that this is impossible?

[Dave]

If we are spending that much then we might we well replace all Intercity/Express services on the WCML!

Also on HS2 its London-Old Oak-Birmingham Airport-Birmingham

My version of that is London-Wembley Stadium-High Wycombe-Oxford-Birmingham Airport-Birmingham

Wembley Stadium - NOT NEEDED. No demand for it in that area. Change in London for services to the stadium for events.

High Wycombe - Small town. Excellent service to London on classic lines from Chiltern Railways (the best frigging operator in the country). Any High Speed train from High Wycombe would probably be SLOWER to London because they definitely will accelerate slower than a Chiltern express and by the time they do reach a speed quicker than the Chiltern express they'll be slowing down for London!!!

Oxford - Not enough demand. Already a half-hourly service with FGW that does just fine. Town isn't big enough.

Birmingham Airport - Needed and in the proposal.

By a few minutes, and even then they might be services with fewer stops!

Is spending "£60bn" really worth a few minutes?

Why not spend the money wisely, and save half an hour between the cities that matter by not having stops at godawful shacks in the middle of frigging Northamptonshire!?

[Dave]

So? They provide a semi-fast service to London from Birmingham, Rugby and Northampton. Virgin don't serve Northampton because - get this - there's low demand for it.

You've got a ridiculous view that the every town needs an express service every 15 minutes to London. Do you not understand that this is impossible?

The only reason why Virgin do not serve Northampton is the fact the WCML main line did not serve that town, becacause of this, its only served by a 75-90 mph loop line

No, the reason Virgin don't serve Northampton is because there's no demand for it! I'm fully aware of the line's geography, Alan, but that makes no difference. Northampton commuters are better served by FREQUENT SEMI-FAST SERVICES TO LONDON. Not everyone wants to travel to the capital!

Also I am not talking about small towns, but very big ones like Oxford, Stoke, Sheffleld, Derby Nottingham etc

Alan, these AREN'T big towns! A few hundred thousand people is NOT a big town! You can't justify a HSR stop in a town like Stoke or Derby! They're not big enough! They're better served by frequent classic line services which - BINGO - HS2 will provide by freeing up capacity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... The only towns big enough for a HSR station in the country are:

London, Birmingham (for the West Midlands), Manchester (for Greater Manchester), Liverpool (for Merseyside and North Wales), Leeds (for Yorkshire and surrounding counties), Newcastle (for Tyne and Wear), Glasgow (for Scotland) and at a push Bristol (for the South West) and Cardiff (for South Wales).

That's it! No other town, city, or conurbation is big enough for a High Speed Railway station - in fact, I'd put a chunk of money on EVERY town over 50,000 people being within one hour of any place on that list anyway!

[GurraJG]

Stopping so often will slow the whole thing down and make it only marginally faster than the current services! How hard is that for you to understand!??

By a few minutes, and even then they might be services with fewer stops!

A few minutes times eight stations add up. Lets say it takes ten minutes to brake from running speed, stop, sit at the station for a minute or two to let people alight and board, and then accelerate up to running speed again, and do that at eight stations, then that's 80 minutes extra running time. Even if it only takes five minutes, it's still 40 minutes added onto the journey!

[Dave]

Wembley Stadium is there to make it easier for people all over the UK to get to the stadium (which hosts many cup finals, concerts and all England Matchs)

How do you think people get there already Alan you fool!?

Ther have been suggestions of having a station at Oxford since its of international prominence

Suggestions rightly snuffed out because "international prominence" isn't worth another civil engineering project that will make NO MONEY.

The main reason we are spending £60 billion is Firstly increase capacity and secondly reduce journey times. My plan does both

You're reducing journey times by less than ten minutes by having stupid stations.

[Ameecher]

I like the notion that Watford and Northampton are badly served. Has he not heard of London midland?

Last time I checked they don't do Intercity services

So, London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Lichfield, Stoke-on-Trent aren't cities and they don't run services between them?

The only advantage of having a through station at Birmingham in your hair brained scheme is to have the line passing through it but not stopping but you're not proposing that so I just don't get it.

After you've moved everything onto the WCML and managed to convince the tax payer that building a new line is better than upgrading the old one (because unless it's faster they will go for the upgrade version) what will you do with the tumbleweed that is the current WCML?

[Dave]

You are fogeting the fact there is a lack of direct services from Northampton to the North! (and the East Midlands)

Well there isn't, because the reverse three services per hour go north from Northampton to Birmingham and Crewe. There's no direct service to the East Midlands because there's no railway that way. Building HS2 isn't the solution to that problem.

If a town is bigger than a few hundreds of thousands of people, then its a city, so those placesare BIG town and thus a massive waste if you avoid them since they are paying for it!

Thos BIG towns would be better off gains HSR services that they are paying for!

They're not paying for it! They're paying taxes to the government who are using their money as they see fit!

The number of people in a town does not make it a city, and being a city does not make a place a big town (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Davids !!!)

Let's have a look at the top 20 towns by population:

London - served by HS2
Birmingham - served by HS2
Glasgow - will be served by HSR at a later date
Liverpool - will be served by HSR at a later date
Leeds - will be served by HSR at a later date
Sheffield - within 30 minutes of Manchester and Leeds
Edinburgh - within 1 hour of Glasgow
Bristol
Manchester - will be served by HSR at a later date
Leicester - within 1 hour of Birmingham
Coventry - within 30 minutes of Birmingham
Hull - within 1 hour of Leeds
Bradford - within 30 minutes of Leeds
Cardiff
Belfast - NOT APPLICABLE
Stoke - within 30 minutes of Manchester
Wolverhampton - within 30 minutes of Birmingham
Nottingham - within 1 hour of Birmingham
Plymouth
Southampton

So... 4 cities in the top twenty (not including Belfast) that aren't either served or are within 1 hour of a High Speed Railway station if all the plans go ahead.

What's your problem?