Rail Franchises

[Redirect Left]

I briefly touched on this a bit in the Your Last Railway Journeys thread, but i thought for what i was interested in, a new thread might be better.

There are two franchises coming to an end in the next few years that I use daily, and was wondering what exactly generally happens at the end of the franchise.
Are the same routes resold to other TOCs, or are they likely extended for longer periods? The ones i refer to here are Northern Rail (Currently expires mid-september 2013) and First Transpennine Express (Expires March 2015).

I've come to greatly appreciate both of these services, and i'd hate if they expired and were re-let to some b****** company, Northern tend to actually be helpful and honestly make the best of what they have, and TPE is one of the most reliable (if sadly overcrowded) services i've used.

[Dave]

Depending, they'll usually put the franchises out to tender. If the old company wants to bid, they usually can do.

You probably won't see much change from Northern, except probably the colours of the trains.

[61653]

I'll be shocked and will assume something's seriously wrong with the bidding process if Serco/Abellio don't retain Northern (assuming it stays largely the same as the current franchise. However, there are proposals to merge Northern & TPEX, and I'd possibly expect FirstGroup to win a combined franchise because they've not done too bad on TPEX (Overcrowding notwithstanding, as it was the DfT that cut back the 185 order) and they've done pretty well on the rural lines on Great Western (albeit with assistance and investment from Network Rail: for example the Penrhyn loop), so in theory they'd have a good chance of making it a success.

Having said that, I don't care for their corporate attitude or their hideous purple colour scheme (inside and out)... There should be a rule that minimises corporate branding for franchises, much like the 'Scotland's Railways' thing. Imagine what an image of the WAG express in some kind of green, white and red colour scheme could do to boost Welsh tourism and investment...

Though branding it "Rheilfford Cymru" might be pushing it a little!

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I actually rather like the livery of Northern, and totally love the TPE one. Hopefully by 2015 though, TPE will have resolved most of their overcrowding issues...
I've noticed that most of their trains seem to be not too bad, its just between HUD-LDS-YRK that most seem to get overly crowded. Before/after those three they seem, eh full. But not can't breathe flat against the door crowded.

Northern for me is pretty decent. Although their Huddersfield - Sheffield trains seem to have a rather unfortunate habit of having one of their engines fail. Leading to them limping on at a turtle speed. I doubt this is Northerns fault or lack of maintenance, purely that Huddersfield - Sheffield gets the Pacers.

[Pilot]

Have you ever been on a 185 that starts at the Airpprt and does one of the Newcastles (I think it is)? Quite often Full with Standing at Piccadilly. They should have been longer, there is no doubt about it, Most services are overcrowded, I just don't think they would have needed engines.

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Have you ever been on a 185 that starts at the Airpprt and does one of the Newcastles (I think it is)? Quite often Full with Standing at Piccadilly. They should have been longer, there is no doubt about it, Most services are overcrowded, I just don't think they would have needed engines.

I've done the full Liverpool L S to Scarborough, which only got full (yes, standing too) at Piccadilly, eased off a bit at Huddersfield, got worse at Leeds, then emptied nearly for York onwards. Most of the time i'm only on TPE trains for Huddersfield - Seamer. Which is generally only crowded when it arrives at Huddersfield, eases off at every station until by the time it gets to Scarborough, not many still on it.
To me standing isn't that much of an issue. Only when they're is so many people you're huddled together and can't move without accidentally feeling up someone.

[Pilot]

Use the cab end of the First Class Coach, everyone forgets that it is Standard Class and don't use it, so Its normally quite empty compared to the rest of the train.

[61653]

Use the cab end of the First Class Coach, everyone forgets that it is Standard Class and don't use it, so Its normally quite empty compared to the rest of the train.

True, but there's only folding seats- fine if you're only doing HUD-MAP or HUD-LDS, but not very pleasant if you're going any further! Also, if you're travelling in the morning from Huddersfield, folks have got wise to that plan. There is a folding table in that section though, if it's not full and standing! I actually prefer FTPE's 170s to the 185s, as the seats are more comfortable (if you're lucky enough to get one). Likewise, if I'm travelling on a 3-car 158 on Northern I always head for the centre car, as they still have the seats with extra padding that were fitted when NorthernSpirit launched their 'Transpenninexpress'-branded service, albeit reupholstered into Northern's house colours.

[61653]

Would it be a good idea to transfer Transpennine North West to InterCity West Coast while North TransPennine and South TransPennine transfered to Northern?

Well, one could argue it was a stupid idea to add the Manchester-Scotland services to TPX as they were originally CrossCountry and ran as far afield as Penzance and Bournemouth. My last year of uni was an absolute nightmare when it came to travelling back home (Taunton at the time) with XC pulling out of both Liverpool and Preston. The NorthWest Transpennine has always been a bit of a bugbear for me, simply because those services don't actually cross the pennines at all! I think if we're going to persist with the privatised system, then Northern and TPX should be kept separate, simply because otherwise whoever wins the franchise will be handed a monopoly. When the TPX/Arriva Trains Northern/FNW split originally happened, the Manchester Airport-Blackpool services weren't planned to go to TPX, but were added on afterwards. I'd have included the York-Bradford-Blackburn-Blackpool services with TPX instead, as at least they do cross the pennines. (on that basis though, maybe Leeds-Morecambe and Leeds-Carlisle should be TPX services too... Even Carlisle-Newcastle!)

[JamieLei]

I always did find it a bit odd that Northern and TPE were separate franchises. There are only three routes in the country now where the locals and the expresses are run by separate TOCs: West Coast, East Coast and TransPennine. And frankly, the difference between Northern and TransPennine is more like the fast and slow services run by London Midland and FCC.

When rail privatisation first happened, it seemed as if the government wanted to keep fast and slow services on the same franchise separate (eg: Great Eastern vs Anglia, Great Western vs Thames Trains, Central vs Midland Mainline). This was later changed so they could be bundled together and allow more cross-subsidisation (eg: One, First Great Western, East Midlands Trains). I just find it odd that Northern seems to buck this trend since they have absolutely no fast services at all really, and where there are they are provided by other TOCs.

[61653]

Quite simply, if it's Limited-Stop and it crosses the pennines, it should be TPE if there continues to be a separate franchise from the locals as there is currently. I'd consider handing all Hope Valley expresses over to EMT, and concentrating the TPE services along the Huddersfield and Copy Pit lines. The present 2 fast services per hour over the Hope Valley would be maintained, with one running to Liverpool as today, the other reversing in the terminal platforms and heading to the Airport as the current Grimsby FTPE service does. However, Lincoln would be a more suitable destination than Grimsby (does anyone even live there?), and the Grimsby Line could have decent connections into these EMT services at Sheffield.

Along the Diggle route, the current 'Northern Hub' plan involves rerouting the electrified Transpennine services to Liverpool via Victoria and the Chat Moss route, as they ran back in the days of 46s and 47s. However, the Castlefield curve plan would see even the Airport services rerouted through Ashton and Victoria before using the new curve to head back along the already congested Deansgate/Oxford Road viaduct. The 'Hub' project involves "investigating" the possibility of 4-tracking this section, but anyone who's ever visited Manchester will struggle to see how this could be achieved within a realistic budget. Adding a second island platform (15 & 16) at Piccadilly is another option but this alone would require some pretty heavy CE works. One of the main reasons for the Castlefield curve is TfGM's desire to allow Calder Valley services to serve the Airport, but I'd question whether this is neccessary. Admittedly transfer to the Airport from routes into Victoria is awkward at best, so maybe an twice-hourly service would be desirable- possibly the semi-fast Leeds via the Calder Valley service, and the new Burnley service via the Todmorden curve would be the best options. Given this though, it surely makes more sense for the Diggle-line Airport services to continue reversing in the terminal platforms at Piccadilly as they do today, leaving the through platforms for the services from Liverpool and the North. To be honest, I'm not sure the services from the North East are the best options for the Airport line though- When the airport link initially opened there was a simple shuttle service using 309s, and with Piccadilly being a far more pleasant place than it was back then, maybe an EMU shuttle with dedicated stock would be the answer, running from either of the extra wide platforms with the travelators as this would allow for passengers with extra luggage and easy transfers from the through-platforms. The TPE services would instead turn back at Piccadilly, possibly with 2tph heading to Liverpool instead of the current 1. Of course with the benefits of electrification and the possible reopening of the older bores of Standedge tunnel, there'll be the option of more than the current 4tph between Leeds and Manchester, and hopefully this will allow 2tph on the locals too. If so, I'd hope to see them alternating between Picc and Vic, especially as the fast services would also be split between the two.

As for the other 'cross-pennine' routes, the Calder Valley could maybe do with a more frequent service of both the semi-fast and the stoppers, but with the Todmorden curve opening and more TPE services running via Victoria, capacity might be an issue. With modern rolling stock splitting and joining trains en-route will be more practical than at present, but if the present fleet is still in use, there's bound to be reliability issues with that. The Todmorden Curve will provide services from Burnley (and beyond?) into Manchester, and if 2tph were to be provided, one could be semi-fast (calling maybe Burnley Central, Burnley MR, Todmorden and Rochdale only) and the other all-stations, perhaps starting from Colne or Blackburn and picking up the stops currently made by the Leeds via Dewsbury & Brighouse service (including those added after the closure of the Oldham loop). The Dewsbury service could then become a second semi-fast from Leeds (calling Batley (peak only), Dewsbury, Mirfield (peak only), Brighouse, Sowerby (peak only), Hebden, Todmorden and Rochdale. This would run alongside the present semi-fast and stopping services via Bradford Interchange and Halifax. The current York-Blackpool service would remain, and could be handed to the Transpennine franchise, though not if the TPE services would otherwise be all-electric. All the current Transpennine NorthWest routes would be handed to West Coast (in the case of the Scotland-Manchester services) and to an 'Express' arm of the Northern franchise in the case of the Barrow/Blackpool/Windermere services. Leeds-Manchester electrification would also raise the possibility of 2 stoppers per hour on the Leeds-Huddersfield thanks to quicker acceleration, and even if the best stock available would be 314/315s, they're still better than the 142s!

[JamieLei]

I believe the priority is to the West Coast franchise and with aspirations of 4tph into Euston and more suburban services, it's not really going to work at the moment. Rerouting the TPE services through Victoria would remove a lot of movements through Picc, but obviously it would mean that the Airport services would take bloody ages to get there. There's not really any hope in adding more tracks in or flyovers or stuff I believe.

But then I'm not familiar with the area at all. I've never caught a train into Manchester and this is only what I've read in the industry newspapers. I believe there was a big feature on that in "Rail Technology Magazine" (free online) a few months back (obviously with a focus on the infrastructure).

[Dave]

I believe the priority is to the West Coast franchise and with aspirations of 4tph into Euston and more suburban services, it's not really going to work at the moment. Rerouting the TPE services through Victoria would remove a lot of movements through Picc, but obviously it would mean that the Airport services would take bloody ages to get there. There's not really any hope in adding more tracks in or flyovers or stuff I believe.

But then I'm not familiar with the area at all. I've never caught a train into Manchester and this is only what I've read in the industry newspapers. I believe there was a big feature on that in "Rail Technology Magazine" (free online) a few months back (obviously with a focus on the infrastructure).

Don't really see what the difference is between Picc and Vic as they both require a reversal.

[JamieLei]

Wouldn't from Leeds to the Airport have to go through Victoria (rather than reversing), head round the new loop, through the Picc through platforms and then to the airport?

Probably got that wrong - I've never been up that bit of the railway.

[Pilot]

Yep it would.

[Dave]

Can you not go via Guide Bridge from Vic? (also fairly unfamiliar with Manchester)

[61653]

Wouldn't from Leeds to the Airport have to go through Victoria (rather than reversing), head round the new loop, through the Picc through platforms and then to the airport?

Probably got that wrong - I've never been up that bit of the railway.

Nope, You're bang-on. That's one of the arguments made in favour of the 'Picc-Vic' curve. I can't see how that's a good idea myself but then I'm not a Transport Planner!

But again, I'm not sure it's neccessary for so many services from such diverse origins to go to the Airport. A frequent and well-organised shuttle service could do the job, a 10-15min interval service from reinstated West-facing bays (covered of course!) at Victoria, round the curve (with alternate services serving Deansgate/Oxford Road calling at Piccadilly's now much less-crowded through platforms and on to the Airport. A regular-ish (maybe 3tph) service from Piccadilly's main trainshed to the Airport, and by then there'll be loads of spare EMUs about that could be refurbished and fitted with more generous luggage space. With dedicated platforms at each 'Main' station (with the exception of 13 & 14 at Picc, obviously) and well designed signage that'd work as well as having a train every other hour from Glasgow, Llandudno and Southport!

And Dave, as far as I know you could get as far as Ardwick from Victoria going that way, but I think you'd then need a great big flyover to get to the Airport line.

[Pilot]

Can you not go via Guide Bridge from Vic? (also fairly unfamiliar with Manchester)

You can, but, you would be heading back towards Leeds. It would involve Vic-GB (reverse)-Piccadilly (reverse) to et to the Airport.

[61653]

Can you not go via Guide Bridge from Vic? (also fairly unfamiliar with Manchester)

You can, but, you would be heading back towards Leeds. It would involve Vic-GB (reverse)-Piccadilly (reverse) to et to the Airport.

There is a (currently freight/ECS-only as is the whole of Victoria-GB afaik) curve at Guide Bridge junction that links trains from Vic towards Ashburys & Ardwick, but yes, a reverse would still be required at Piccadilly. A curve to Longsight would be relatively easy to provide, but this would mean Airport trains crossing the Stockport lines on the level. There's been calls for a flyover from Ardwick to the through lines for years to avoid crossing the station throat on the level, but as that was deemed too expensive I doubt one going the other way to the Styal lines would be economical.

[Pilot]

Their isn't a curve towards Picc anywhere between Picc and Stalybridge. Don't believe me, check. I have just checkde myself. If their was a curve between Ardwick and Ashburys, their would be no Ardwick Depot.