Rail Franchises

[Dave]

I can't believe we are discussing Stafford having a HSR stop - the place is a f*** dump with nothing to bring people in, and not enough commuters out.

Do you not understand the logistics involved in tunnelling under developed areas? It's hardly putting a tunnel through a mountain. I'm glad you're back I've been tense all week.

EDIT: And Wolverhampton is no frigging better! There is NO POINT SERVING EITHER TOWN - it's a 30 minute journey from Stafford to Birmingham, 15 minute journey from Wolverhampton. That is an acceptable connection to a HIgh Speed service.

[Ameecher]

If the HSR line is no going to go though Stafford, you might as well do it though Wolverhampton (which is home to lot of people in the area)

It's hard enough to build the line through the Cotswolds as it is, building through an urban area is unnecessary. The folks from Wolves can catch a train through to Brum International if they're that desperate for high speed or they could get an express down the classic lines that would take probably 15-20min more than the HS option + connection for less ticket price and less hassle.

[Dave]

Do you not get it? The HSR line will probably go through neither if it's going to Manchester.

WOLVERHAMPTON AND STAFFORD ARE NOT SIGNIFICANT AND WOULD NOT GENERATE SUFFICIENT PATRONAGE TO JUSTIFY MILLIONS ON A HIGH SPEED STATION.

GET IT IN TO YOUR THICK SKULL.

[JamieLei]

Yes and the Japanese also build mass transit frequent stop tunnel systems in their cities but the cost of doing that for a High Speed railway is not even viable for them.

It quicker and cheaper to build a tunnel under a city centre rather than demolish it!

By cheaper do you mean £16 BILLION pounds for Crossrail? That's not cheap. High Speed 1 cost £5.8bn to build, and you want to quadruple the cost of HS2 by tunnelling under every single city?

Personally I'd rather have a few more hospitals please.

[Dave]

Please respond to Jamie's post above.

[Dave]

So you want a HSR to go though a town (which a lot of its residents will be paying for!) without stopping?

It won't go through Wolverhampton or Stafford - because it's cheaper to build around the towns and cities than build through them. It's long been accepted the West Coast Main Line isn't a "quick" route, hence why crack expresses are operated by tilting trains.

The High Speed Line will have a spur to Birmingham, but the main line follow the path of the Trent Valley roughly, on the way to Manchester - so why would either Wolverhampton or Stafford even be lightly affected?

[Ameecher]

Also its not like we are not spending that much, HS2 (even under the current plans) would cost £32.7 Billion to build and if counting other costs (Rolling Stock etc) it goes up to £62.5 Billion and even that does to include extending HS2 to Scotland!

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/high_spe ... costs-3227

, AZ
I think almost everyone would agree that it's costing quite enough already without multibillion pound tunnels being added for the sake of a few unneeded stopping trains.

[Dave]

It won't go through Wolverhampton or Stafford - because it's cheaper to build around the towns and cities than build through them. It's long been accepted the West Coast Main Line isn't a "quick" route, hence why crack expresses are operated by tilting trains.

The High Speed Line will have a spur to Birmingham, but the main line follow the path of the Trent Valley roughly, on the way to Manchester - so why would either Wolverhampton or Stafford even be lightly affected?

Thats that Dft plan, under my plan the main line would go though Birmingham and come to the surface close to the M6 Toll Road, it could avoid Stafford, but it would be better if it went though it

Yeah, but the DfT plan is the one that's happening. Your plan is only in your cute little world.

Let's assume your plan is the "real" one. Why would it be better to go through Stafford? If it comes to the surface close to the M6 Toll, why are you even considering Wolverhampton?

[Dave]

So you want be to spend even more money demolishing Birmingham City Centre, paying compensation and dealing with lawsuits etc?

No we don't want you to build in Birmingham City Centre at all. The current DfT plan is the RIGHT way.

[Geo Ghost]

So you want be to spend even more money demolishing Birmingham City Centre, paying compensation and dealing with lawsuits etc?

Wait wait... not long ago, you were pretty much suggesting doing that yourself. Pretty much ripping down New Street station in one go and building a huge new station in it's place or building a dedicated HS station in the city centre.

[Dave]

My plan is NOT to service Wolverhampton (if it did, the route would have to change), even if it avoids Stafford it would be close enough for pass it and thus Stafford residents are paying for a railway they they cannot use yet its is passing earby)

What about all the people in the Cotswolds that the line is passing - are you going to provide a station for every village?

[Geo Ghost]

Also don't use "we", use "I" insted!

No, the use of 'we' is perfectly fine there as Dave is speaking collectively. I agree with him completely and I'm certain others do too. Thus, his use of 'we' is perfectly right.

[Ameecher]

I'm in agreement with Dave so it's become 'we'.

[GurraJG]

So you want be to spend even more money demolishing Birmingham City Centre, paying compensation and dealing with lawsuits etc?

Wait wait... not long ago, you were pretty much suggesting doing that yourself. Pretty much ripping down New Street station in one go and building a huge new station in it's place or building a dedicated HS station in the city centre.

Yes, yes he was. And I remember it not being much of a problem for him either!

[Ameecher]

I think almost everyone would agree that it's costing quite enough already without multibillion pound tunnels being added for the sake of a few unneeded stopping trains.

Which is why it is should serve as many population centres as it can

But there has to be a point where it doesn't become financially viable, no matter how much you want to provide a public service. If you're wanting to build a tunnel under Birmingham that's going to have to a similar length to the Crossrail tunnel, admittedly with easier ground conditions, less obstacles, less stations but counter to that, with a much wider bore and a massive station box somewhere in the middle, £16bn isn't looking like too bad a shout for that either. Just increased the costs by a quarter, do that again for Manchester (as I suspect you want to) and you've done 50% increase. Add in tunnels to Stafford or Wolves and it's just going to spiral out of control.
A far more sensible solution, is to, as we've said many many times before, is use the classic WCML to serve the in between places with expresses that they don't currently have (or more frequently than they do now) and everyone wins.

[Geo Ghost]

I am talking about other residents of the West Midlands!

So how do you know that isn't a united view of many up there? Dave may well be speaking for a number of people who have the same view.

[Dave]

I think people in the West Midlands who want High Speed services just want to get to the capital - adding a thousand stops makes it almost redundant.

[Geo Ghost]

It not clear howe many though, but at least a few would support an idea for a HS2 line in Birmingham that would not demolish part of it

HS2 will run into Birmingham in a manner of speaking. Just not at high-speeds. You wouldn't get train running through cities at high speeds anyway.
I'm finding it difficult to understand what on earth you want Alan. It's very confusing.

[Dave]

The DfT's plan provides High Speed travel to the capital within one hour's drive/train connection of EVERY West Midlands town.

[Geo Ghost]

I want Birmingham to be served by a though station and to prevent demloishing parts of the city

What you want and what is logical are two different things. I want a line that links the ECML from Welwyn round to St Albans and then along to Watford. But I know it won't happen for a number of reasons.

Why do you want a HS through station at Birmingham anyway? You don't even live there