Major parts of Thameslink project nearing completion

[Nawdic]

Have you ever looked at a 455/7, the 508 trailer has a lower roofline and is wider than the 455.

Also, 365s are dual voltage

As demonstrated:Granted, its not clear, but it proves a point.

[Ameecher]

Why don't they extend Greater Anglia London-Cambridge (Semi-Fast) services to Kings Lynn and cut back FCC servcies to Cambridge, that will mean they will not need to use the platforms at KC to run London-Kings-Lynn services (since the Cambridge to Kings Lynn line cannot cope with the new Thameslink stock)?

Because that's busy enough already and also takes longer, 49m versus 1h09m.

As for the 455 and 319 not being the same size, they're both mk3 derived whereas the 313 is PEP derived, I suggest you publish your source because they definitely aren't the same size.

[Nawdic]

That source is definitely wrong. Look at my picture I have put up.

EDIT: A better image:

[Nawdic]

Google Images.

[Nawdic]

Try Network Rail, I personally do not know.

[FLHerne]

Why don't they extend Greater Anglia London-Cambridge (Semi-Fast) services to Kings Lynn and cut back FCC servcies to Cambridge, that will mean they will not need to use the platforms at KC to run London-Kings-Lynn services (since the Cambridge to Kings Lynn line cannot cope with the new Thameslink stock)?

Because the West Anglia services take 20 minutes longer, perhaps? And people from King's Lynn would like to get to London in under a year ?

Is it becuase FCC services between London to Kings Lynn are non stop between are non-stop and on GA, servcies between London to Cambridge are not?

In part, but also line speeds are lower on the West Anglia and the services have to fit in between more stoppers on the southern end.

Also they can introduce more 12 car trains (they already have platforms long enough) on the WA Main Line

No. Only some stations (the ones called at currently by 12-car services) have long enough platforms - most are still 8-car. To run more 12-car trains, you'd have to lengthen a lot more platforms, not to mention find enough stock.

Also can some of the 319s be used to replace the 313s on the Moorgate...

No, for two very good reasons:

1: All platforms on the Moorgate line are 6-car - 313s are 3-car so a pair fit nicely, if you were using 319s all services would be shortened to 4-car, because that's how long a 319 is and a pair would be too long. Before you suggest it, all the electrical equipment on a 319 is on the centre cars, so you can't take one off and make a 3-car unit. Expanding all platforms on the Hertford Loop, plus the underground ones on the Moorgate line, would be insanely expensive.

2: As mentioned by others, the Moorgate tunnels are too small for non-PEP-derived stock. Your insistence that 319s (which are Mk3-based) are the same size as PEP-based 313s is just plain wrong, as 47407's pictures show very clearly. That site you are quoting is, by extension, also wrong.

the 319 is not based on the 455

It is, actually. (or perhaps the other way round, I forget)

Pretty much all the trains are all the same size, even on line where there is a bigger loading gauge (like the GWML)

Actually, 165s/166s (which are on th GWML, in case you didn't know) are rather bigger - which is going to be a problem with cascades after electrification.

[EXTspotter]

The 165/166s shouldn't be an insurmountable problem, there are sufficient ex-GWR lines which are unelectrified which can absorb them - SW England, Wales. If they were employed here, even if some of the branch lines needed lighter units, there are sufficient services on main lines which could use the increase in capacity. They would be perfect for the capacity/frequency increases campaigned for in Bristol and could help reopen lines by not having to find extra rolling stock to work on them, e.g. the Portishead branch. They would also be more suited to long distance workings such as Plymouth to Penzance than class 150s.

[Ameecher]

Pretty much all the trains are all the same size, even on line where there is a bigger loading gauge (like the GWML)

Actually, 165s/166s (which are on th GWML, in case you didn't know) are rather bigger - which is going to be a problem with cascades after electrification.

Apparently this a bit of a myth, they managed to run by themselves up to Doncaster, they just had to take the door steps off which are the only thing that makes them out of gauge.

Like I say, apparently, I'm prepared to be proved wrong.

[Geo Ghost]

Also, 365s are dual voltage

Well, they say that, but they've all had the 3rd-rail shoe removed
Not much of an engineering job to re-fit them, assuming they have them, but there's not really any benefit. Would be a waste for them to do all-station stoppers or the Moorgate run. The are much better suited for the express commuter services

Why don't they extend Greater Anglia London-Cambridge (Semi-Fast) services to Kings Lynn and cut back FCC servcies to Cambridge, that will mean they will not need to use the platforms at KC to run London-Kings-Lynn services (since the Cambridge to Kings Lynn line cannot cope with the new Thameslink stock)?

Also can some of the 319s be used to replace the 313s on the Moorgate - Letchworth Garden City/Hertford North/Welwyn Garden City services, the North of England can have 365s insted

Cut services to Cambridge? Why? We'll have less services running up there then. How is that fair? We'd end up with immense over crowding on the line then.
Also, we don't even know if Thameslink services will run up to Kings Lyn. According to information so far, there's no hint of suggestion of it.

Also, why do you think the 313s need to be replaced? Yes they are ugly as hell on the inside, but they do the job and they do it reasonably well.
Why replace the 313 routes with 319s? For what benefit? You'd get a coach or two longer, yes. But not all stations are fitted out for longer trains. The stations along the Moorgate Branch in particular.

But the 313 and the 313 are the same size,

... ... ...
You don't say?

Is it becuase FCC services between London to Kings Lynn are non stop between are non-stop and on GA, servcies between London to Cambridge are not?

FCC services from Kings Lyn are non-stop between Cambridge and London. Some services from/too Cambridge are non-stop A-to-b and that's it.
Then you have the fast commuter services that are typically London-Finsbury Park-Stevenage-Hitchin. Then they either go stopping all stations to Peterborough or stopping (nearly) all stations to Cambridge (depending on the length of the train) and same in reverse.
We've then got the Slow Commuter services that are typically London, Finsbury, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn (2x), Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin then either towards Peterborough or Cambridge again like before.
We've got the Hertford Loop trains that, depending on the time of day, either terminate at Letchworth or Stevenage and roll round to either Moorgate or Kings Cross - again depending on the time or if there are engineering works.
Then you have the All-station-stoppers between Welwyn Garden City and Moorgate/Kings Cross (the latter is less frequent and depends on the time of day).
And of course, the services that terminate at Hertford North from London.
Then you've got all the odd little peak-time trains that run slightly strangely and a couple of other little routes I may have missed out. But generally, the above are the primary routes at this moment in time. Bloody good ones at that - I'll give FCC that much. Getting around is easy, convenient and most of the services link up time wise. Such as slow services to Cambridge will stop at Stevenage/Hitchin before the fast service to Peterborough. Getting around on the line is not only quick, but it is incredibly simple and easy.

Alan, a word if I may. Don't you dare turn this topic into another one of your ramblings and bloody 'ideas that I think are awesome' topics. I follow the Thameslink Programme and likewise anything relating to the GN route closely. Thus I want to be able to talk about that here without someone like you derailing the topic every 5 seconds and going on and on about things that do not matte. I hope I've made myself clear. Bare that in mind.


Only thing worrying me about the final TL plan is how complex the network will become after. As I said before, at the moment the GN route is quick and very easy to navigate. Apart from remembering timetables, it's very easy to learn the route and which trains go where. However, how much will that change when connected up to the TL line through London. For slow services stopping at main commuter stations, we'll only ever be able to run a maximum of 8 coach trains. The fast commuter ones will handle 12 no problem. But extending platforms at some stations isn't going to be possible or very easy. A pity really.

[MjD]

The Class 313s are among the oldest on the UK Rail Network (36 years old!), by 2018, they will be over 40 years old and yet there is no plan to replace them

Just because of they are old doesn't automatically mean that they need replaced, if they are fit for purpose and still reliable there is no need to replace them.

[Geo Ghost]

Just because of they are old doesn't automatically mean that they need replaced, if they are fit for purpose and still reliable there is no need to replace them.

Indeed so! Though I do wish FCC would look at Southern's 313s then back to their own.
Southern actually have decent looking trains. FCC just look ghastly inside. They could benefit from a bit of a fresher look at least I think

But then again, they do the job. Like i suggested before, FCC seem to put all their focus into the TL Programme over many other things at the moment. Presentation seems to just be thrown aside. Admittedly it's not a major thing, but it certainly would make travel a lot more pleasant

Alan - reliability can be extended if they are well maintained - which the units are.

[Pilot]

The Class 313s are among the oldest on the UK Rail Network (36 years old!)

We have the Class 142s up here, they are 37 Years Old! They are Absolutely hideous. Luckily though, they will have to go out of service by 2019 (YES!!!!!).

[Geo Ghost]

FCC are better than the interiors of the 315s run by GA, they are pretty bad...

Without a doubt the 313s are well maintained, but they cannot last forever and the cost of keeping them in condtion will rise the older they get.

By the looks of things they might end up as the longest lasting rolling stock ever on the Uk Railways

Where does the look of GA come into this? FCC doesn't even run 315s...
No, they won't last forever. But just because they are getting near their life that was set when they were first built (things have changed since then and improvements made) doesn't mean we should get rid of them instantly. The cost of maintaining the current fleet is far cheaper than buying a new fleet of trains.

Also, the 313s are not the longest lasting stock in the UK and never will be. I think steam engines hold that honour

[Pilot]

We have the Class 142s up here, they are 37 Years Old! They are Absolutely hideous. Luckily though, they will have to go out of service by 2019 (YES!!!!!).

The 142s where built in 1985-1987, they are 27 years old (and rubbish) and like the 313s, there is no clear replacement for them

Sorry, my Brain went a bit and my Maths went wrong (I'm off Ill ATM). The Class 142s however, haven't seen a single Refurb in there Life by the Looks of them though.

[Ameecher]

A decent bit or rebuilding with new traction packages would see PEP stock last a decent few years longer which would be cheaper than a new build and then when have enough money to spend on new stock they can be replaced. A better plan than chasing F1 drivers out of Monaco.

I have an issue with the whole 319s plan, you seem to offer them as replacements for everything, there are a lot of 319s but not that many.

[Pilot]

Class 319s

You do realise a lot of 319s will be coming up to Manchester to operate over the Chat Moss Line when that is Electrified as well as the TP route.

[Geo Ghost]

By the way what is the longest lasting rolling stock in the UK (in normal service)

If we include locomotives... 47s or 30/31s perhaps? At a guess that is.

You do realise a lot of 319s will be coming up to Manchester to operate over the Chat Moss Line when that is Electrified as well as the TP route.

Ah good riddance. Please, take them
As anyone could guess, I don't like the ugly buggers.

[Ameecher]

Class 20s probably and then probably the Mk2 coaches on the Caley sleeper and the WAG.

Edit: or 08 shunters.

[Pilot]

Sadly the worst ones are the Northern ones (which serve your local area)

I do know which ones serve my Local Area!

You do realise a lot of 319s will be coming up to Manchester to operate over the Chat Moss Line when that is Electrified as well as the TP route.

Ah good riddance. Please, take them
As anyone could guess, I don't like the ugly buggers.

I'd take anything, as long as it isn't a Pacer

[Geo Ghost]

I'd take anything, as long as it isn't a Pacer

I don't know. Pacers always kind of look pretty run to ride on. Like a bus going down a dirt road