Rail Franchises

[61653]

Be a lot more spacious than a 390 too. If Alstom had a better grip on what works and what doesn't back in the early 90s the 175/180 desgns may have won more orders., Would rather have those running on the TPEX services than the 170s and 185s. Then again, there'd most likely be the same number of carriages so loading times in the peaks would be a problem. Of course in an ideal world there'd be lots of money around thanks to Alan Fry MP's campaign on tax avoidance/evasion(!) and we could have different fleets for different times of the day, but in the REAL WORLD who wants to see £1+ spent each on thousands of carriages that sit idle for 2/3s of the day, be they BendyDildos or whatever...

[teccuk]

I will lose my faith in humanity, god, and all that is good, if First win Great Western again. I already have no faith in the franchising system anyway.

It's not my area, but my experiences of FGW from when I lived in Taunton (They were GW-Intercity/FGW-Link only when I initially moved. Locals were still Wessex Trains) were that they were a bit crappy. When they won Greater Western the Intercity services got worse (high-capacity HST anyone?), and locals around Taunton and Exeter pretty much stayed the same, though there was the high-profile problems in Bristol and Bath). I get the impression though, that services in Devon and Cornwall, particularly the Falmouth & St. Ives branches, have much-improved and grown dramatically in usage. It probably helps that FGW seem to have first dibs on any spare sprinters that become available!

Going back to my point about using heritage DMUs on the Cornish branches (which may have been in another topic), aren't there a bunch of Mk2-based and Sprinter-based DEMUs currently surplus in Northern Ireland? Surely they could be fitted with standard-gauge bogies for use on the mainland as a quick-fix for overcrowding in places like Leeds and Manchester... Would be cheaper than buying more 172s for routes that may well be electrified in the next decade or so.

Yeah but that was easy. With the benefit of hindsight its easy to decry beaching as short sighted, all towns have grown, the population has grown. There was latent demand just waiting to be released. If you simplify fares, make trains two car instead of one, and get frequencies up from 2tpd to 8tpd your going to release it. Plus of course these lines still cost A LOT to run. Anyone could of done it. A monkey could of done what FGW did in Cornwall, i could of done it. Severn Beach is the big success and that was Bristol and South Glos councils.

[Dave]

Don't think a Pendo would get up to 50 and back to 0 again on the Stourbridge Town line haha. that's provided its electrified of course haha.

[JamieLei]

You'd walk half the distance of the branch line within the thing anyway!

[Geo Ghost]

The Class 390 is one of the few trains in the UK (and the only non HSR one) that can go 140 mph, they are also in the only proven Intercity EMU in the UK

There you go again!
They aren't 'one of the few trains' that can reach high speeds for cock sake. For example, the current speed record for a locomotive is set by an Electra Class 91. THAT record was set in 1989 and was faster than a Pendo-freaking-lino, let alone long before it.

They are ONLY good on the WCML because of the requirements. That. Is. It. You'll find that the majority of units and locomotives in the country are built for a specific reason or need. I won't go into them all as it's not my job to educate you when it's perfectly easy to go find the information yourself.
Just because you personally love the Pendolino does not make it 'the single greatest unit to have ever existed'. Yes it has good points but it also has bad ones. Just like... every other train, locomotive, unit etc in the UK?
And also, what is this crap about the only 'proven Intercity EMU in the UK'? Comparing it to what exactly? Other units that are build for totally different reasons? Other locomotives that, again, are built for different reasons, rolls, and to other specifications?

[Dave]

To be honest it's the best intercity EMU because it's the ONLY true intercity EMU.

But if we're looking at quality EMUs that run for decent distances, the 350/450s?

[Kevo00]

Except that the 390 production run has also long finished and we would need to go through a whole new design, specification and tendering process anyway.

[Dave]

I think you'll find they're 100mph units, but the truth is that speed isn't everything - Pendolino interiors are cramped, there are too many first class carriages, and they've caused massive issues for track maintenance.

If you're looking for a low-cost (across all areas), high-density long distance EMU, then I'm sorry but I don't think the 390 is it.

(EDIT: Kev, they are still building them at Alstom in Italy - four new units and a number of new carriages)

[Geo Ghost]

They no longer make the Class 91/Mark 4 anymore, othweise I would pick that train

So now you suddenly change your argument?
You said only train in the UK. Now you're saying "oh I mean in production." Do you just change what you are saying any time your proved wrong?

but because it is the only Intercity train in production than can do 125 mph and above

Load of bollocks.
Firstly, it isn't.
Secondly, it does not matter whether something is "in production" or not. What matters is it's service life. There's hundreds of trains that aren't in production any more but they are still passed around and used by all kinds of TOCs. Whether they be 'intercity', commuters, locomotives, etc.

[Hitperson]

I was elaborating why I chose the 390, also the train has to be in porduction because most of the Intercity trains need to be replaced in the naer future, which is why they are planned to be replaced by the IEP, what I am suggesting is ditch IEP and develop new versions of the 390s

so what you are suggesting is to bin progress, maybe we should get them to start building A4's again as they are clearly the superior.

[Ameecher]

390s no longer meet crashworthiness specification. The 4 new ones were only allowed to be built because they were complementing an existing fleet and had to be built to match the current fleet hence why they have the at seat entertainment stuff which will in due course be ripped out to make way for WiFi. You can't go ordering more of them without a significant redesign.

As for the only 140mph capable trains, what about the 395s? They can still go at 140mph but only ever run at 125mph unless they're late.

[Ameecher]

Because the crashworthiness spec has been increased since then

But the 395s could run on normal lines at 125mph like the ECML. The Pendolino doesn't run at 140mph because of restrictions on signalling.
In theory there is nothing stopping the 395s being equipped with First Class and being an intercity EMU, hell that's what the IEP is with a load of voyager engines bolted underneath.

[Dave]

...hence why they have the at seat entertainment stuff which will in due course be ripped out to make way for WiFi.

Amazing. Didn't know that!

[Ameecher]

Moving the doors is not really an issue otherwise the 444s would have been built with 1/3 + 2/3 doors...

[Ameecher]

...hence why they have the at seat entertainment stuff which will in due course be ripped out to make way for WiFi.

Amazing. Didn't know that!

The entertainment was not that good anyway, better to have wifi so than you can access tv and radio

Yes everyone knows that but it illustrates how the trains are being built to the original specification as that is the only way they could get authorisation to build them, they've had to receive all the mods that the original fleet have had since they were built post delivery.

[Geo Ghost]

I was elaborating why I chose the 390, also the train has to be in porduction because most of the Intercity trains need to be replaced in the naer future, which is why they are planned to be replaced by the IEP, what I am suggesting is ditch IEP and develop new versions of the 390s

Most of the intercity trains? What the heck are you on about? The only intercity trains that are getting on a bit are the HSTs. But so long as they are kept well maintained, they still have plenty of life left in them. the 91s/225 rakes are still relatively young, the 180s, 220/221s, 222s, most loco-hauled trains such as 90s, 395s etc.
Even some express networkers can easily run short intercity routes. Well, they already do.

Tell you what, why don't we just ditch every train in the UK and keep making new versions of the 390. That sounds a grand idea...
We don't NEED new versions of the 390. That's just utterly stupid. Apart from anything, I'd much rather have units and locomotives designed and built in Britain rather than getting stock from other places. Besides, the technology on the 390 was derived from the APT technology. So we sold that tech and then bought the trains from the place we sold it to (if I have that correct).
Why would anyone keep making the same type of unit? That's just stupid. Utterly and completely stupid. Like I said, different trains are used on different routes for a number of reasons.

maybe we should get them to start building A4's again as they are clearly the superior.

I'm all for that

As for the only 140mph capable trains, what about the 395s? They can still go at 140mph but only ever run at 125mph unless they're late.

140? Christ, I swear they were faster than that. I thought they usually ran at around 150-160 down HS1. Well well... that's news to me. Where on earth did I read about the 150mph then. Gewd... hardly seems anything now but it feels so much faster on the HS1 route.

[Hitperson]

maybe we should get them to start building A4's again as they are clearly the superior.

I'm all for that

i don't know if the "Tornado" is still our newest locomotive

[Ameecher]

i don't know if the "Tornado" is still our newest locomotive

Nah, the Class 70s are newer.

As for HS1, in the tunnels the Eurostars are limited to 140 as well. Only across Kent do they really run at full 186mph.

Alan, basically the only off the shelf trains that are operating in the UK at the moment that you can repeat order are: 172, 380s and 379s. Go!

[Nawdic]

Not forgetting that Virgin / AXC are planning to put pantographs on the 220/1 fleet to make them hybrids.

[Ameecher]

Again follow on orders to complement existing fleets, I've just explained the 390 situation to you...
The 377s are basically a 379 with the software from a 377 hence why they'll be a new subclass.
The 350s are a follow on order that already existed for the LM order and as such can still be purchased but they're the last ones that can be built and before you point out that some of them are going to TPE, yes, but on a sub-lease, when TPE North gets electrified a new build of EMUs will be built and the 350s will go back to LM.