Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michpi »

Andrew350 wrote: 26 Apr 2021 22:12 Big changes on the way
A really Big changes. So many letters! :D
I wonder how it will look ingame. I'm looking forward for this.
Will the font change it's color depending on the city's growth stage?
It looks like we'll have to build 2 buildings?
"Cargo delivery TimeFrame" setting in the NewGRF parameters"
Will it also be possible to change the duration of wastelander's boost? :wink:
I would like this boost lasted 3 months instead of 2.

Small question.
Before that I've never used town name's grf.
And my companies always received name from the first station's nearest town.
Now I loaded Wasteland Town Names and my company got a completely different name.
Does the town name's grf also contain company names?
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

here is a suggestion: add an option for how complex city reconstruction is. you can have 5 options. simple: only food or water. less simple: food and water. normal: food, water and building materials. more complex: food, water, building materials and power. complex: food, water, building materials, power, hub, town hall and passenger service. names can be discussed however, as i am not sure what to call them. food, water and building materials is like version 0.5. that would please everybody possibly.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Michpi wrote: 27 Apr 2021 11:32 I wonder how it will look ingame. I'm looking forward for this.
Will the font change it's color depending on the city's growth stage?
It looks like we'll have to build 2 buildings?
That is an in-game screenshot, so it won't look too much different than that :) The text starts off with only the earliest goal shown, and as you progress more gets added to explain the next one. The previous goals are simply greyed out, but left visible to remind you what needs to be done to maintain growth :) And yes, this is a separate industry from the Municipal Hub, which is still needed to unlock the final stage.
Michpi wrote: 27 Apr 2021 11:32
"Cargo delivery TimeFrame" setting in the NewGRF parameters"
Will it also be possible to change the duration of wastelander's boost? :wink:
I would like this boost lasted 3 months instead of 2.
Hmm, maybe. If I'm going to re-write it again I'll have to think about a better way to implement it for possible future extensions, the current way isn't the greatest. But it should be possible :)
Michpi wrote: 27 Apr 2021 11:32 Small question.
Before that I've never used town name's grf.
And my companies always received name from the first station's nearest town.
Now I loaded Wasteland Town Names and my company got a completely different name.
Does the town name's grf also contain company names?
No, it can't change your company name. It's probably just a coincidence :)
andreasaspenberg wrote: 27 Apr 2021 17:33 here is a suggestion: add an option for how complex city reconstruction is. you can have 5 options. simple: only food or water. less simple: food and water. normal: food, water and building materials. more complex: food, water, building materials and power. complex: food, water, building materials, power, hub, town hall and passenger service. names can be discussed however, as i am not sure what to call them. food, water and building materials is like version 0.5. that would please everybody possibly.
It sounds like what you want is entirely new economies. I may do that in the future for the other climates, but that is long way off :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i do not want new economies. i just want the simpler gameplay that i had in version 0.5 as an option. in version 0.5, cities became self sustained after delivering enough food, water and building materials. i played that a lot until i upgraded to version 0.7 alpha.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michpi »

Hello Andrew350!

Coal and oil are nearly invisible on the dark Cargo Payment Rates graph.

I understand that ships are probably not your primary target right now.
But if you will someday look through their stats, then I think we'll need large ships. 1000 - 2000 ton available from the beginning.
Maybe just a couple of them which will never expire?
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Michpi wrote: 28 Apr 2021 05:55 Coal and oil are nearly invisible on the dark Cargo Payment Rates graph.
Ah yes, I saw that while doing a playthrough yesterday but forgot to write it down. Thanks for reminding me :)
Michpi wrote: 28 Apr 2021 05:55 I understand that ships are probably not your primary target right now.
But if you will someday look through their stats, then I think we'll need large ships. 1000 - 2000 ton available from the beginning.
Maybe just a couple of them which will never expire?
Wow, where are you getting 1000 tons from in the beginning, I can barely fill a 100 ton ship :P Seriously though, there is a lack of large ship capacity which could be handy to make them more useful, so I'll add that to my list as well :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i have easily gotten more than 1000 tons of steel by sending enough materials to the steel mill. you should at least change the initial ships so that 1 ship full of oil results in 1 full electricity carrier. at the start of the game, i have to deliver 2 full ships of oil to get 1 full electricity carrier. i might have found a bug however. one town started changing from destroyed to makeshift/shack because i delivered stuff to a nearby town. it was all delivered by ship.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 28 Apr 2021 10:01 i have easily gotten more than 1000 tons of steel by sending enough materials to the steel mill. you should at least change the initial ships so that 1 ship full of oil results in 1 full electricity carrier. at the start of the game, i have to deliver 2 full ships of oil to get 1 full electricity carrier.
I'm starting to think the electricity carrier might have too much capacity, it seems like it usually delivers all the electricity in one trip, rather than spreading it out. And that's without running full load orders. I might try lowering it's capacity, which should help both cases.
andreasaspenberg wrote: 28 Apr 2021 10:01 i might have found a bug however. one town started changing from destroyed to makeshift/shack because i delivered stuff to a nearby town. it was all delivered by ship.
That is intended for now, but that will (unfortunately) be changing with the town hall update :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michpi »

Andrew350 wrote: 28 Apr 2021 18:24 I'm starting to think the electricity carrier might have too much capacity, it seems like it usually delivers all the electricity in one trip, rather than spreading it out. And that's without running full load orders. I might try lowering it's capacity, which should help both cases.
Please, do not decrease capacity.
I can hardly transport the power plant's output with current electricity carrier :(
15 electricity carriers for the first plant and 7 for the second.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Well, maybe then we need two: a low capacity and high capacity version? Maybe 1/2 and double the current one?
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michpi »

Yes, I think it's a very good solution
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i see that you are using trains to transport oil. i have to use ships, because i have no land based oil production. that suggests that you are using some kind of grf that enables you to produce oil on land. with the default grf(only wasteland) you can only produce oil at sea. without extra grfs, there is not enough electricity to keep the carrier running at all times. it needs to wait for a delivery of oil. at the start of the game it needs to wait for 2 deliveries of oil. you could however add the option for adding more storage to the elctricity carriers, like you did with those trailers earlier.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 29 Apr 2021 11:23 i see that you are using trains to transport oil. i have to use ships, because i have no land based oil production. that suggests that you are using some kind of grf that enables you to produce oil on land. with the default grf(only wasteland) you can only produce oil at sea. without extra grfs, there is not enough electricity to keep the carrier running at all times. it needs to wait for a delivery of oil. at the start of the game it needs to wait for 2 deliveries of oil. you could however add the option for adding more storage to the elctricity carriers, like you did with those trailers earlier.
Unless you get lucky and have a power plant right on the shore, typically you use ships for the first leg of the journey, then transfer it to trains/road vehicles for the final delivery (or fill in the ocean to build rails out to the platform, but that's ugly :P)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Ok, major update time!

If you've previously played Wasteland but were turned off by the difficulty in understanding how town growth works, this update might be a good time to give it another try :) As teased earlier, the alpha-6 build is bringing some big quality-of-life features to (hopefully) improve the gameplay experience and make things like town growth much easier to understand and master. There are some other changes too which are described below. A lot of this is still a bit experimental so feedback is appreciated, especially whether the new town growth information is useful or not :)

Brace yourselves, this will be a long post. Skip to the end if you just want to get the file and start playing :)

First on the list is the Town Hall, as shown earlier:

What does the Town Hall do?
===================================
[+] Spoiler

Nothing. For now, anyway.

It just shows you information about how you're doing with town growth (see this post for a screenshot). It is, however, now required to exist in a town before the town is allowed to grow. If it doesn't spawn on map generation in the town you want, it can be funded for free in the fund industry window. It must be placed in or near towns (obviously).

Why is it required for town growth? Technical reasons. I won't bore you with the details (unless you want them), but it is necessary or else everything breaks :)

New Cargo Acceptance Behavior
=======================================


As a side effect of storing the town information for use in the Town Hall, there is a slight change to the way towns accept cargo. Previously, any town building within range of the catchment area of a station would detect cargo delivery and be allowed to grow. However, it is now limited to only the town to which the station belongs, i.e. the town in the station name**.

**At least with the first station - if others are built nearby, other towns may then detect those cargo deliveries. It seems a bit inconsistent so far in testing, so let me know what you experience.

This means if you have two towns close together with a station in between, only the town the station is named after will receive cargo and be allowed to grow. This can be worked around by using transfer orders and using separate stations in each town for the final delivery, which is usually a good idea anyway to keep deliveries more frequent :) It does mean though you may no longer be able to 'station walk' to include nearby small towns, or grow two cities at once with a single station. I know, it hurts a little for me too ;)

Also town growth is no longer limited to the area immediately near the station, but applies to the whole town receiving cargo. This is mostly necessary to keep the information window consistent with what is actually happening. For example, it would make no sense if the Town Hall said the town was growing, but in reality only a few building plots were within range of a station accepting cargo, so most of the town was doing nothing. That would only confuse players, and confusion is what this change is attempting to help with :)

It may be possible to limit this a bit by keeping new buildings from spreading too far from existing ones of the same type, but honestly this would only slightly delay the inevitable spread everywhere, so I wasn't convinced there is much benefit to adding a bunch of special casing to prevent it.

Anyway, this change may not be seen as a good one to some people, but it is unavoidable. Hopefully the overall playability will increase enough to offset the inconvenience :)

Known Limitations
======================

  • The Town Hall is just a yellow cube
Yes, this is just a placeholder for easy ID'ing while some proper graphics are made :) Testing comes first!
  • The goals from the previous level do not change to reflect actual cargo deliveries, they are "frozen" at YES.
Short reason: Technical limitation.
Long reason:
[+] Spoiler
In the industry window, there is only one string available to show additional text. This means that to have an information window like this which "dynamically" changes with new information, you actually need to make a new string for every single possible combination of options. For a bunch of YES/NO options like this, that is 2^x strings. So if I have 5 different options, I need 2^5 = 32 unique strings to be able to show each possible combination.

As it is done now, with the previous levels "frozen", there are 44 unique combinations possible (plus a few special cases). If all of the options could change all the time, that would require 1,156 individual strings. Even ignoring the hard limit of 1,024 strings here, there's no way I would do that ;)

As for why I leave the previous levels in the window at all: it is to remind you what is necessary to keep building the current/previous stage, since the window updates as soon as it is possible to start working on the next one, not necessarily when you can stop doing what's needed for the current one.
  • If you start the game with the houses already at a more advanced level, the text still assumes you did something to achieve that.
Related to above^, but basically too much work to "fix" for too little benefit.
  • The text does not take into account the additional requirements for town growth in the arctic, tropic, and toyland climates
This is a general problem with Wasteland as a whole, the gameplay doesn't take that into account yet. Hopefully in the future, but for now you'll just have to work around it if you want to play those climates :)

New Parameters
====================
[+] Spoiler
As part of the re-write that was necessary to make the Town Hall work, I've included a new parameter to adjust the interval of time allowed for cargoes to be delivered for town growth. It still defaults to 2 months, but can now be set anywhere from 1 to 12 months. If you've previously had trouble delivering all cargoes in time, setting this to a higher value should help out greatly :)

For example, I played a test game with this parameter set to 6 months, and I found it gave enough extra time to allow for train-only transport for all cargoes (i.e. no transfers with road vehicles), without making things too easy. I'm sure people will find this setting very welcome :)

===========================

Another parameter I added is the one requested by Michpi to allow tweaking the duration of the Wastelander boost. This can now be configured to last between 1 to 6 months, with the default still being 2 months.

It should be noted, however, that the behavior of the quadruple boost bonus has changed slightly. Due to now being configurable, the total amount of Wastelanders which must be delivered changes depending on the duration of the setting. You must deliver an average of 200 Wastelanders per month for each month specified in the setting.

For example, if it is set to 4 months, you must then deliver a total of 800 Wastelanders within the time period to activate the boost. This counter is constantly revolving, though, so if you under-deliver for one month the boost may temporarily stop if you don't make up the difference. In other words, the 4x boost is not necessarily guaranteed for four months like the double boost, but rather (in this example) you have a 4-month window to deliver a total of 800 Wastelanders. Basically, as long as you maintain delivering 200 per month, the boost should remain active after you reach the threshold.

I'm not sure if I've managed to explain this well enough in the short bit of text shown in the industry window, so let me know if you have a problem with it, or can think of a better way to describe it :)

Other Stuff
==============
[+] Spoiler
- removed extra info from municipal hub window as it is no longer useful
- added the doom buggy for low capacity rv transport (as shown earlier)
- fixed the steel mill production meter being incorrect on full production
- reworked all mine industries to use functions for production code, to reduce duplication
- mine industries now have a chance of spawning with slightly higher production values, thanks to a happy accident as a result of the above change
- changed the mine industry windows to use the VU-meter style production indicator and updated their descriptions

The End
==========


Keep in mind this is a very major update under the hood, so don't be too critical if I've missed something ;) I've tested it myself with a couple of playthroughs where I tried to break it, and at least so far it seems to be okay.

But if you encounter any issues, as always, do please let me know. In particular with this update, savegames will come in handy when diagnosing issues, so keep that in mind :) Note that this update is, once again, not compatible with any previous versions. Sorry about that!

Enjoy!
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michi_cc »

Andrew350 wrote: 02 May 2021 08:40 In the industry window, there is only one string available to show additional text. This means that to have an information window like this which "dynamically" changes with new information, you actually need to make a new string for every single possible combination of options. For a bunch of YES/NO options like this, that is 2^x strings. So if I have 5 different options, I need 2^5 = 32 unique strings to be able to show each possible combination.
Hmm, https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/C ... w_.283A.29 seems to imply that the text stack is supported, which would mean you could pass dynamic parameters to the one string.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

alpha 6, what happened to alpha 5(not intended to be a power rangers reference)?
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Michi_cc wrote: 02 May 2021 12:07 Hmm, https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/C ... w_.283A.29 seems to imply that the text stack is supported, which would mean you could pass dynamic parameters to the one string.
Oh that's interesting. Looks like it may be a bit complicated (for me) to get all the info I need stuffed in there and get a sensible result out. I'll have to play with that later, brain's not working now :)
andreasaspenberg wrote: 02 May 2021 15:45 alpha 6, what happened to alpha 5(not intended to be a power rangers reference)?
It was eaten by one of my test games :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by gatebuzz »

First of all, thank you for this great addition to the game! I watched someone playing OpenTTD + wasteland on Twitch the other day and it sparked my interest. FIRS never grabbed me the way that wasteland now has.

One thing of note - dont know if anyone else has called this out already - I am playing the latest 1.11.x version of OpenTTD (from Steam) and had to disable inflation in the economy for wasteland to actually be playable. With inflation turned on, the interest payments on my initial loan and running costs of vehicles far surpassed the income from delivering cargo. With inflation turned off, I have had some great experiences bootstrapping a rail network in this post apocalyptic world!
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

gatebuzz wrote: 04 May 2021 21:29 First of all, thank you for this great addition to the game! I watched someone playing OpenTTD + wasteland on Twitch the other day and it sparked my interest. FIRS never grabbed me the way that wasteland now has.
Thank you, glad you enjoy it :)
gatebuzz wrote: 04 May 2021 21:29 One thing of note - dont know if anyone else has called this out already - I am playing the latest 1.11.x version of OpenTTD (from Steam) and had to disable inflation in the economy for wasteland to actually be playable. With inflation turned on, the interest payments on my initial loan and running costs of vehicles far surpassed the income from delivering cargo. With inflation turned off, I have had some great experiences bootstrapping a rail network in this post apocalyptic world!
Yes, that is an issue. There is a warning message in the 0.7 alpha versions if you try playing with inflation on, however due to a limitation in OpenTTD currently it only appears hidden in the NewGRF config window.

This has been recently fixed so a popup message can also appear, but I don't think it was backported, and likely won't be included until OpenTTD 1.12. So yeah, for now just know to avoid inflation :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

the system for restoring the land is glitched. it works when set to year 2078(both in alpha 4 and alpha 6) but, not when set on year 2200 in alpha 4. i have not had the time to test it in alpha 6 yet.
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