2021 storming of the United States Capitol

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2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Chrill »

I can't be bothered to post a Politics topic, because it will just require too much moderation. I'll try posting this question here instead.
This topic concerns current Politics. This means we must obey stricter guidelines. In this topic, there will be absolutely no leeway in regards to personal attacks. We do not discuss the legitimacy of the protests themselves, but rather the actions in the Capitol riots, what caused the riots and what could happen next.

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Donald Trump has been recorded encouraging Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger to "find" 11780 votes, which would put Trump ahead of Biden in Georgia.
Despite the electoral college ratifying the results of the 2020 election, and numerous frivolous law suites being thrown out, multiple senators and state senators plan to protest the House and Senate ratifying the democratic outcome of a US election

-----

My question then is not whether or not you believe there is widespread voter fraud, or whether the Democrats are "stealing" the election. My question is, rather:

Is the behaviour shown by Donald Trump, and the senators refusing to acknowledge Biden as the winner of the 2020 US Presidential Election, really legal? If it can be considered illegal, are there serious attempts to push that and actually accuse them of crimes? What crime are they committing, and what is a possible outcome of that legal battle?
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Re: The Thread Of Randomness

Post by kamnet »

No, there's no specific criminal law that any of them have violated. But, this behavior in the past would certainly qualify as "high crimes and misdemeanors" and thus make them eligible for a vote to either publicly discipline or expel sitting Congressional members, or impeachment and a vote for removal for the president. We know how the last impeachment went down, so that won't change. And attempting to expel over 140 members of Congress, while possible, would certainly incite some violence from radicals who feel they are no longer bound by either laws or common decency.
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Re: The Thread Of Randomness

Post by Zakos »

To riff on that, I'm sure Kamnet already knows but the rest of you might not: a bunch of Trump supporters stormed the Capitol Building. Lovely.
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Re: The Thread Of Randomness

Post by Chrill »

We do know, indeed. I watched the news broadcast from 9pm to 1am Swedish time last night, I'm a bit tired now. Some horrific scenes from the literal halls of democracy. This time, Trump caused it, but the issue at hand is that people have such little faith in science and in democracy and in the justice system. This is caused by the media machine tirelessly spinning a false narrative, and social media sites fuelling those flames by showing us what their algorithms think we will like.

Even if Trump were to be removed from office, the damage is done. USA is a divided nation like it has not been since the Civil War. Trump is not the issue, the people are.
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Re: The Thread Of Randomness

Post by Redirect Left »

Four deaths during the escapade. One was shot by the police, and three others died due to what is termed as "medical emergences", which is quite vague.

Today has been a shocking day for democracy, I hope Trump finally learns the consequences of his actions and vocalising unproven conspiracy theories. The creators of the monster, has lost control of the monster.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Chrill »

I split this from the Thread of Randomness. Please make sure we focus on the riots and the storming of the US Capitol and the aftermath of that, not whether the election result is fake news or not.


---


With that said, I am horrified to see what was once supposed to be a beacon of democracy reduced to this. We may be saddened today but perhaps now the time has come to actually heal. USA has a chance to distance itself from the cult that is the President. A President should not be revered as a religious leader.

Perhaps this will be remembered as the turning point. McConnell, Pence, and many more diehard supporters of President Trump have distanced themselves from him. If the nation follows, tomorrow will be brighter. I do look forward to a calmer less inflammatory style of leadership.

Also, some people are commenting on why the Police did not act more harshly more quickly. With the number of people present, had police pushed back we could potentially have lost hundreds of lives. They were simply overwhelmed by the number of people flooding the building. It was easier to push back against BLM protests because fewer people were armed and ready to murder politicians.

If these imbeciles are NOT charged later, once identified, then that's a different story.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Born Acorn »

Weird, I got an email notification to a new thread!

Yes the police situation here was very different, but BLM protests spread naturally for protests/riots; this was a sudden attack by what started as a relatively peaceful rally riled up and focussed on a single target. The police kept getting circumvented and kept having to fall back as lines became useless.

Of course, it seems even those present in the attack itself are now saying it was all false flag actors. :roll:
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Chrill »

I unfortunately stumbled upon a video that clearly shows the woman being shot, and the action just before that. She was shot by a police who was the actual final stand between the rioters and members of Congress, potentially Pelosi and Pence. The rioters struck down a window in a door, with furniture propped up behind them to keep it closed. Despite being at gunpoint, and repeatedly instructed to back down, she begun climbing through the door's broken window and was shot from the inside. Had that police officer not opened fire, who knows if members of Congress would have been attacked.

It is horrifying that a woman who served 14 years in the Air Force (I believe it was, may be another branch) truly believed that she was defending the Constitution by breaching Capitol under President's orders. I'm not sure brainwashed is the right word, but that particular rioter was clearly in belief that she was saving her country.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by YNM »

My condolences for the US to have it's values fallen into a coma. Or at least when one of the values starts attacking the other.

Hope a speedy recovery would be on the way. We need those, you know, otherwise we'd have another value brand appearing and take roots here, on the other side of the planet. (they've already started, and they used to root here anyway, millenias ago...)
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Born Acorn »

Chrill wrote: 07 Jan 2021 14:30It is horrifying that a woman who served 14 years in the Air Force (I believe it was, may be another branch) truly believed that she was defending the Constitution by breaching Capitol under President's orders. I'm not sure brainwashed is the right word, but that particular rioter was clearly in belief that she was saving her country.
Regrettably we seem to have entered a "post truth" era. Instead of political debates being resolved, people can now flock to their own echo chambers and be told they are right. Centrists and even moderates are cast as the enemy on all sides, leading to these groups on the extremes growing ever larger as they become an important voting bloc.

Social media is a prime driver behind this but also the failure of news agencies on all sides to actually condemn fringe views and instead promote them for viewership.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Auge »

Hello
Born Acorn wrote: 07 Jan 2021 14:20 this was a sudden attack by what started as a relatively peaceful rally riled up and focussed on a single target.
Seriously? The president told since months that he will not accept the result if and when he loses the election. He told since months that his supporters should, even with violence, avert the new elected president to get inaugurated, if it is not him. And you talk about a "sudden" event?

Bold hypothesis, I think.

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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Chrill »

Born Acorn wrote: 07 Jan 2021 15:29Regrettably we seem to have entered a "post truth" era. Instead of political debates being resolved, people can now flock to their own echo chambers and be told they are right. Centrists and even moderates are cast as the enemy on all sides, leading to these groups on the extremes growing ever larger as they become an important voting bloc.

Social media is a prime driver behind this but also the failure of news agencies on all sides to actually condemn fringe views and instead promote them for viewership.
I haven't been a big fan of the label "post-truth" but I must say I embrace it now.

I know myself how the "filter bubble" of social media platforms can push you in a specific direction. I can very openly admit that I consider myself left-leaning, in a classic Social Democratic way much like how Sweden was governed in the 1970s. All the recommendations I get on Facebook, however, try to push me much further left. It's as though Zuckerberg wants me to be a "radical snowflake", as some would call it. And we're drawn into it even if we are aware. I try to actively seek different sources, perhaps sources that do not necessarily align with me politically. It's not always easy, and it's up to our social media and indeed news agencies everywhere to expose these bubbles and make people break out of them.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Born Acorn »

Auge wrote: 07 Jan 2021 15:37 Hello
Born Acorn wrote: 07 Jan 2021 14:20 this was a sudden attack by what started as a relatively peaceful rally riled up and focussed on a single target.
Seriously? The president told since months that he will not accept the result if and when he loses the election. He told since months that his supporters should, even with violence, avert the new elected president to get inaugurated, if it is not him. And you talk about a "sudden" event?
Apologies, The "sudden" part referred to the breaching of police lines, not them turning up to DC for the event. I don't think anyone predicted Trump would actually order the crowd to march down to Capitol Hill to support his allies, only for Mike Pence to then release a statement saying he won't be doing what Trump said. This combination of events made a very angry crowd all turn up at once with an intent to cause trouble. Of course there were likely a sizable number of people there who were always going to cause it, like the clashes the night before.
Chrill wrote:I know myself how the "filter bubble" of social media platforms can push you in a specific direction. I can very openly admit that I consider myself left-leaning, in a classic Social Democratic way much like how Sweden was governed in the 1970s. All the recommendations I get on Facebook, however, try to push me much further left. It's as though Zuckerberg wants me to be a "radical snowflake", as some would call it. And we're drawn into it even if we are aware.
I am the same, and I am often offered hard left things in my feed too, through friends who are further left than I. I tend to look at what foreign media says about UK items, but I do keep in mind that some media does have bias too.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

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Born Acorn wrote: 07 Jan 2021 16:19I don't think anyone predicted Trump would actually order the crowd to march down to Capitol Hill to support his allies, only for Mike Pence to then release a statement saying he won't be doing what Trump said. This combination of events made a very angry crowd all turn up at once with an intent to cause trouble. Of course there were likely a sizable number of people there who were always going to cause it, like the clashes the night before.
This is actually what I'm still wondering, I couldn't catch the events unfolding in live, but are there good sources for how the masses moved in the event ? Maybe for the US residents members.

EDIT : Alright, so a few of the key points (like this for the start of it, then this... "brave" coverage). A bit up to speed again.
Last edited by YNM on 08 Jan 2021 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Redirect Left »

As I noted in my previous post on this topic, 3 people died of 'medical emergencies'.
It seems news of these deaths are slow to surface, however it seems one of them died after tasering themselves, which later triggered a heart attack. Another person also died of a heart attack 'amid the excitement'.

I cannot find any (reliable) news source to say what happened to the other who died of 'medical emergencies'.

I truly hope this is fully investigated, with reports of compliance from some law enforcement officers allowing them into Capitol Hill basically opening the gates up like its a museum. There's a whole heap of stuff to look throiugh and figure out how this managed to happen. When someone is waltzing through Capitol Hill building with a confederate flag, there's been a complete breakdown of security.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by kamnet »

A US Capitol Police department officer was severely injured during the insurrection. Last night he died from his injuries.

Watching all of this unfold was really surreal. My morning had already started off with the sad news that a friend of mine had passed away after battling terminal brain cancer for years. I watched the turmoil unfold all day on television, simply gobsmacked at how it unfolded. After 8 hours, I had to take a break. I went to bed, and woke up a few hours later with the news that another friend of mine had died, and I'm presuming it was suicide... on top of it being my mother's birthday, she passed away five years ago. Overall it wasn't a pleasant day for me.

I watched Trump's speech to the crowd, and it was full of his typical rhetoric. He started shouting, "We will never give up, we will never concede! It doesn't happen, you don't concede when there's theft involved! Our country has had enough! We will not take it anymore! And that is what this is all about." He's made this claim enough that I paid no mind to it. And when he concluded his speech by saying, "We're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue... We're going to try to give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So, let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue!" I figured it was going to be a largely peaceful movement.

I didn't hear what the rest of the speakers did, but whatever was said clearly gave many in the audience the belief that they were supposed to attack the capitol.

Sadly, I've now found much evidence from other parts of the Internet, including Parler, that many had formulated some loose plans to do exactly that. They were not going to be content with just protesting outside as a means to disrupt the counting of the votes, they had intended to break in and stop it. Three improvised explosive devices (IEDs) were located. One on the Capitol grounds, one at Republican National Committee headquarters, and one at Democratic National Committee headquarters. These plans were out in the open for anybody on these social media sites, and apparently was well known to European security agencies. I'm quite certain that FBI and national intelligence agencies were also on top of it, but I have no idea how accepted it was or how seriously it was taken. Our institutions right now are so fractured and depleted in money, resources and staffing that it's hard to know just how well they could have even responded.

I have faith that President Joe Biden will pull things back together. It will take longer than four years to re-establish all the norms that Trump and many of his supporters, especially his supporters from among elected representatives, have smashed not only in the last four years, but the last forty years. Because it's not just been the Trumpers, it's been the Tea Party before them, those aligned with the "Contract with America" before them, and the "Moral Majority" and the Reaganites before them. Bit by bit, our foundational institutions have slowly been chipped away.

I dearly pray that we can continue to hold on to this democratic republic.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Chrill »

I'm really very sorry to hear about the hardship you've endured lately, kamnet. We care for you, reach out to me if you need.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

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Chrill wrote: 08 Jan 2021 11:59 I'm really very sorry to hear about the hardship you've endured lately, kamnet. We care for you, reach out to me if you need.
Mentally it was a tough day, but not my toughest by a long shot. I have more important issues to deal with that consume my time, I don't break easy. ;)
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

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kamnet wrote: 08 Jan 2021 11:39... many had formulated some loose plans to do exactly that. They were not going to be content with just protesting outside as a means to disrupt the counting of the votes, they had intended to break in and stop it.
I mean, some of them had military garments on (I count those with at least a helmet or a vest on), for lord sake. Not sure how that isn't pre-prepared at all. There're clearly some people in the mob who wanted to pierce through everything.
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Re: 2021 storming of the United States Capitol

Post by Redirect Left »

Twitter has finally found reason to suspend the @realDonaldTrump account, following on from Trumps handling of the stormiing of the Capitol
Furthermore, the Democrats now plan to file an article of impeachment, for 'incitement of insurrection'. Which is a very serious sounding three words

There's a lot of theories floating around that there might have been, to some degree, a pre-planned insurrection around this. Personally, I wouldn 't agree with that, but who knows what to believe any more in regards to this.

I really hope the investigation that needs to happen, doesn't end up getting swept under the rug before things get to the level of thoroughness as the public deserve to know.
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