Chiltern Snailways

[JamieLei]

Rail Management, Page 6, Today's edition

RMOL - Chiltern Snailways.pdf

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The Chiltern adverts indeed have been around for many months, including one huge one on Harborne High Street. Although the Rail community might moan endlessly about Virgin, they still rate quite highly in the general public's opinion. One of my friends, and my music teacher refuses to travel by Chiltern, no matter how much cheaper it is, and in the end price isn't everything.

Interesting seeing an Intercity and a Commuter operator fight for the same sector of the market

[Kevo00]

Well, in my limited expirience Virgin cover that bit of route much too slowly, while Chiltern take over 2 hours and don't even bring a trolley round. So I think its six of one and half a dozen of the other.

This is of course, however, one of the few routes in the UK where there are genuinely competing operators on different routes.

[Dave]

Well, in my limited expirience Virgin cover that bit of route much too slowly

Eh? Quickest Brum-Euston is 1hr 12min - the quickest Brum-Marylebone is 2hr+

Think you've messed what you were gonna say up somewhere.

... while Chiltern take over 2 hours and don't even bring a trolley round.

Not really true, to be honest - there's a trolley on most, if not all, services out of Brum nowadays.

[JamieLei]

Definitely not a trolley on all services - I think I've only ever seen the trolley twice and never on a return journey. Plus I've been on 4 services marked as Clubmans, and the entire unit was composed of 165s (rather than a strengthened 168 which also turns up frequently). I believe there used to be a headline journey of 1h50 at one time, but not sure if it's true.

With Virgin you always know exactly what you're gonna get - I'm actually booked later this month onto that non-stop New Street - Euston 1h12 train so quite looking forward to it! - and woe betide the local passengers to International who jump on thinking every Virgin stops at the airport

[Kevo00]

Well, in my limited expirience Virgin cover that bit of route much too slowly

Eh? Quickest Brum-Euston is 1hr 12min - the quickest Brum-Marylebone is 2hr+

Think you've messed what you were gonna say up somewhere.

... while Chiltern take over 2 hours and don't even bring a trolley round.

Not really true, to be honest - there's a trolley on most, if not all, services out of Brum nowadays.

No, I said exactly what I meant to say. And there was the caveat of limited experience there.

Last July I took a Virgin service to Birmingham for a conference, leaving Euston on a friday morning. It took at least 1 hr 30mins I think - certainly a long time for that journey. I think the work at Rugby has possibly ended now so maybe its quicker now, but it was pretty slow then, and I'm hardly talking ancient history here. As you note, 1hr 12min is done by only one train a day, so that is hardly a typical average time. A glance at the timetable suggests the present average is more like 1hr 25min.

On the Saturday after the conference I returned to London by Chiltern because there were no Virgin services on the weekend. The journey did indeed take over two hours, was formed by two 165s and no trolley came round. Which is a shame for Chiltern, because I'd almost certainly have bought something if it did.

Now you may say its only one journey, but your average punter with no particular knowledge of railway politics will assume it is always this way. I wasn't claiming to know everything about it, just repeating what my experience of the two operators was.

[Dave]

Now you may say its only one journey, but your average punter with no particular knowledge of railway politics will assume it is always this way. I wasn't claiming to know everything about it, just repeating what my experience of the two operators was.

No, fair point, but 1hr 25min is still not a slow time...

It's about 1hr 28min to Retford on the ECML for 138.5 miles, as opposed to Euston-Brum which is 113.

It's clearly slower, but coming to a stop costs about 5 minutes, I reckon, and a Pendolino makes two more stops than a NXEC express.

Added to that there are some slower sections (sharp curves, as opposed to the straight ECML), then it's understandable.

Rugby's changed now - used to be 15mph I believe, which is why many trains stopped when coming through there. Nowadays, it's 125 running for the trains up the Trent Valley and I think 70 for coming off onto the Brum line.

[JamieLei]

Evidentially, the rush hour Chiltern business services are probably better than the off-peak ones, with 168s put on the correct runs and trollies actually coming round.

But then, Chiltern do have the upper-hand with Dorridge and Warwick Parkway stations, which are far more convenient to A LOT of travellers than Coventry. Warwick Parkway is extremely well used, which is astounding considering its a relatively new station with masses and masses of parking. Parking at International is expensive and difficult, as is Coventry. For Birmingham travellers, parking at New Street is non-existent and Chiltern have an upperhand by doing the Kiddiminster runs, serving Park and Ride stations such as Rowley Regis.

So despite fast headline times, Chiltern may be more convenient and possibly faster overall for some business travellers.

[Dave]

Evidentially, the rush hour Chiltern business services are probably better than the off-peak ones, with 168s put on the correct runs and trollies actually coming round.

But then, Chiltern do have the upper-hand with Dorridge and Warwick Parkway stations, which are far more convenient to A LOT of travellers than Coventry. Warwick Parkway is extremely well used, which is astounding considering its a relatively new station with masses and masses of parking. Parking at International is expensive and difficult, as is Coventry. For Birmingham travellers, parking at New Street is non-existent and Chiltern have an upperhand by doing the Kiddiminster runs, serving Park and Ride stations such as Rowley Regis.

So despite fast headline times, Chiltern may be more convenient and possibly faster overall for some business travellers.

No doubt that Chiltern deserve the tag of best TOC in the country.

[JamieLei]

Although I'm finding I use LM A LOT more than Chiltern nowadays - it's the Walk-up £9.90 Super-Off Peak Return to London that does it for me - even if you have to change at Northampton.

Chiltern do have A LOT to credit to them - Evergreen 1, 2 and now 3 (detailed plans for running to Oxford), and the fitting of aircon into the entire 165 fleet (making them bearable to travel to Birmingham in). However, the line had considerable investment by NSE before they received it, and the 168s were already in the pipeline (hence the early batch looking like 165s).

[Dave]

Although I'm finding I use LM A LOT more than Chiltern nowadays - it's the Walk-up £9.90 Super-Off Peak Return to London that does it for me - even if you have to change at Northampton.

Chiltern do have A LOT to credit to them - Evergreen 1, 2 and now 3 (detailed plans for running to Oxford), and the fitting of aircon into the entire 165 fleet (making them bearable to travel to Birmingham in). However, the line had considerable investment by NSE before they received it, and the 168s were already in the pipeline (hence the early batch looking like 165s).

Well this is the problem - Chiltern were prospering whilst there wasn't any real alternative to Virgin. Now there are options available from New Street, they're gonna take a pounding.

[JamieLei]

London Midland don't seem to be that keen on marketing their £15 Off Peak Return though, but more interested in the £5 Advance singles. I suppose once the 350s displace the last 321 they might begin advertising more heavily - like Kevin said, customers may assume that one journey is representative of the lot. Likewise, one uncomfortable ride in a 321 can deter future rides even though they'd be all 350s soon.

[beeb375]

Some random points I feel like raising:

Are 321s really naff? I have never ridden on one, nor a 350, last time I went from Coventry to Brum on a local was on a 323 (with the bizarre acceleration noises, I remember) in a time before 350s existed.

Also, which batch of 168s looks better in your opinions? I've always regarded that Turbostar cab design as fugly, so I much prefer the first...

[Badger]

Are 321s really naff?

I've not been on any except Northern's 3 for years. Northern's are knackered, dirty, falling to bits. Wouldn't use them but I don't have a choice

[Ameecher]

Are 321s really naff?

I've not been on any except Northern's 3 for years. Northern's are knackered, dirty, falling to bits. Wouldn't use them but I don't have a choice

Like most 321s then.

As for 323s weird acceleration noises, they're cool, just like a Notworker.

[JamieLei]

First time I went to London via LM, I got a 350 to Northampton and a 321 onwards to Euston. Return it was a 350 to Rugby and a 321 onwards to Birmingham - so anything could turn up on any bit of the route really. - The only unit that's reserved for specific routes I believe are the 350/1s (tables) for Trent Valley.

LM's 321s were dirty, noisy, and had the same seats as the Birmingham 150s. The interior ambience wasn't great either. I've never travelled in a 350/2 (commuter) but I've peered in the window and they look identical to the /1s, just with lots of 3+2 bay seating. Oddly enough they forgot to include little tables, so there's nowhere to put your hot drink...

I grew up with the 323 acceleration noise and I wouldn't change it for anything

Also, which batch of 168s looks better in your opinions? I've always regarded that Turbostar cab design as fugly, so I much prefer the first...

I prefer the second (and most common) cab design - it makes it easier to spot whether you've got a Clubman or a Turdo.

[RFT]

I prefer the turbostar cab as the 165-style cab is a bit of a blob to my eyes.

Living between leamington and banbury, I don't really have the choice of TOCs to london, though sometimes when going to birmingham there'll be an XC voyager.

On the whole, I quite like chiltern, though there's always the disappointment when you're stood on the platform and a 165 hoves into view. the 168s are nice, and marylebone, as a london terminus, is of a moderate, not overwhelming size. At the brum end, moor street might be smal, and sometimes gets overcrowded, but new street is, well, new street.

anyone know if there's any likelihood that the new platforms at moor street will ever be brought into use?

[JamieLei]

Apparently they're not signalled yet so they can't be used. Chiltern have a long-term aspiration to use them, as well as Centro for running local diesel services along the Camp Hill line into Moor Street.

Moor Street is a very nice station - a much nicer way to arrive in Birmingham than New Street. Ticket barriers have gone in, although they were out of use the last time I went through.

[Kevo00]

Snow Hill, on the other hand, is easily one of the worst looking stations in the UK. Its not quite a Wakefield Kirkgate, but its pretty horrible.

Birmingham must have been at the back of the queue when they handed out the railway stations - though the mock preservation style of Moor Street is quite nice.

[Dave]

The official word is that Network Rail are not willing to provide the funding or the major timetable rewrite.

To be cost effective, I reckon the terminii platforms at Moor Street would have to be used by both London Midland and Chiltern services. That means that all of a sudden there's nothing going through to Snow Hill. Considering the money being spent on the Metro's new phase in Birmingham at least, then I can't see why they'd want to diminish the responsibility of Snow Hill. I personally think the station and building above it should be raised to the ground and start again but there we are. I think a good plan would be to offer limited through services (every thirty minutes) between Worcester and Shirley/Dorridge but convert platforms one and four into terminii stops and have the majority of trains terminate at Snow Hill. I don't think that many people from the top end of the Snow Hill Line use it for Shirley or Dorridge. The only drawback I can see to that is that lots of shoppers like Moor Street.

There's not much that can be done. Chiltern needs Snow Hill from the south (whilst the terminii platforms are shut at least) and LM need Moor Street from the north so its all a bit pear shaped really.

[JamieLei]

I think that through trains are the way forward - more people than you think probably use them. I certainly have used a few from Rowley Regis down to Olton/Solihull, and the CrossCity line is definitely well used across the city.

I don't see why the existing London Midland trains are required to use the terminus to make it viable - keep the through service. Shoppers like Moor Street, and the white-collar office workers use Snow Hill. From a conversation I had with the Centro representative (although he was the Bus division rather than the rail), new local services along the Camp Hill line (serving Sparkbrook and Moseley), and also along the Nuneaton line (serving Fort Dunlop and Castle Vale) would both run into Moor Street, giving quite a few terminating services.

Chiltern by the look of it would like to ditch Snow Hill altogether now (less than 25% of their passengers join at Snow Hill, and could easilly walk/catch a connecting train). All their marketing advertises Moor Street to Marylebone, with little mention of Snow Hill. Unfortunately there's no terminating facilities available at Moor Street.