Plans for new planes (formerly locomotive sets)

[krtaylor]

Dinges, I just took a look at your double-decker cars. I think that's a great idea but somehow they look a little odd. I am travelling near Baltimore/Washington and here the commuter trains actually use double-decker cars that look really cool. There is a good picture of them here:

http://www.vre.org/

They have several types actually, you can see here:

http://www.vre.org/service/cartypes.htm#mafersa

I like the angles leading up to the second section, it makes them look more interesting.

[Raichase]

We have similar trains here, If Dinges is interested I can dig up the pictures I posted here, they are technical drawings I got off the govt. (okay, stole...)

[Dinges]

Doesn't Amtrak ride that section between washington and baltimore? Cuz I'm currently making the Acella Express & HHP-8 which also gets some Doubledecker cars.

But I like to create the VRE GP-40 engine (I already found a side view to construct it from, but I need a front.

[krtaylor]

Yes, Amtrak rides the section between Washington and Baltimore, it's the south section of the famous Northeast Corridor. The Acela trains do not use double decker cars, they are semi-permanent five-car trainsets all on one level. The HHP engines pull ordinary Amtrak cars, almost all of which are single level. Many of the cars which look like they might be double-decker, aren't actually, they are really sleeping car compartment cars. Most of the double-decker "Viewliner" cars are used out west. There are a few operating on long-haul trains from New York, some of which use some sections of the Corridor, but I don't think they use double-deckers on any of the Boston-Washington dedicated Corridor trains.

Really I don't think the Acela is all that big of a deal in practice. It looks very much like the TGV, and in TTD would be all but indistinguishable from the Thalys except for a different color. And it doesn't go that fast, it's top speed is 150MPH which it goes for all of 8 miles, the rest of the time it only goes 110. I'd be more interested in seeing the Bombardier JetTrain, which also looks like a TGV and goes 150, but is turbine-powered and thus needs no electrification. Nobody uses it yet, it is new.

Dinges, I take it you are working on these other trains and the East Asia project is on hold? I have tried to find more people to work on the graphics with you but I fear I have not done a very effective job.

The VRE engines are quite similar to many of the diesel engines used on commuter trains up here, such as by NJ Transit and MBTA. There are many different types but I don't think you could really tell them apart in TTD, so I don't think they are really worth the bother. We have a representative sample already.

[Centennial_Tycoon]

I am making the India rail set, it would involve around 15 diff. engines.
Also there almost 10 different sets of passenger\mail\goods cars.
How do you force a particular set of passenger cars to replace the normal one like for the ICE3, etc...

Oh yeah, indian trains are really slow - but carry huge loads as u know!
Ive started work :
The diff. trains sets are:
1. Rajdhani, 135kph
2. Deccan Queen 80kph
3. Konkan 160kph
4. Mumbai Local 50kph - i guess the slowest currently in use
5. Western Railways - 80kph
6. Eastern Railways - 80kph
7. Central Railways - 80kph
8. The "Mail" series - 100kph
9. Shatabdi - 130kph
10. Palace on Wheels - luxury 'hotel' train - speed unkwown

All i can do is graphics - if someone has spare time please reply -ill send 1 or 2 engines after i make the graphics so that they can be complied - by the way - the actual speed, etc.. has to be edited by TTD Alter, right?

[Dinges]

Yes, Amtrak rides the section between Washington and Baltimore, it's the south section of the famous Northeast Corridor. The Acela trains do not use double decker cars, they are semi-permanent five-car trainsets all on one level. The HHP engines pull ordinary Amtrak cars, almost all of which are single level. Many of the cars which look like they might be double-decker, aren't actually, they are really sleeping car compartment cars. Most of the double-decker "Viewliner" cars are used out west. There are a few operating on long-haul trains from New York, some of which use some sections of the Corridor, but I don't think they use double-deckers on any of the Boston-Washington dedicated Corridor trains.

Really I don't think the Acela is all that big of a deal in practice. It looks very much like the TGV, and in TTD would be all but indistinguishable from the Thalys except for a different color. And it doesn't go that fast, it's top speed is 150MPH which it goes for all of 8 miles, the rest of the time it only goes 110. I'd be more interested in seeing the Bombardier JetTrain, which also looks like a TGV and goes 150, but is turbine-powered and thus needs no electrification. Nobody uses it yet, it is new.

Dinges, I take it you are working on these other trains and the East Asia project is on hold? I have tried to find more people to work on the graphics with you but I fear I have not done a very effective job.

The VRE engines are quite similar to many of the diesel engines used on commuter trains up here, such as by NJ Transit and MBTA. There are many different types but I don't think you could really tell them apart in TTD, so I don't think they are really worth the bother. We have a representative sample already.

What trains would you like to see then?

[krtaylor]

An Indian trainset would be perfect for the Tropical environment. THey have lots of unique trains so it would be great to see.

[krtaylor]

Dinges, it seems like Michael's set for the Temperate is most of what would be good. I would like to see, added to that set, the following:

The GG1 electric loco from the 1930s. It operated in line service until the late 1980s, was the most reliable engine of all time, and extremely powerful. It regularly operated faster than 100MPH, I think it could reach 120MPH on a straight track, but there isn't much of that in the Northeast Corridor. It could work with existing cars, or have a matching set in Pennsylvania maroon.

The Acela Express and HHP would both be nice additions, particularly if we remove all the old TTD locos from the list.

Suitable double-deck cars would look great and be useful.

The Bombardier JetTrain would be fun, it could use the same matching cars as the Acela Express which is what it's designed to do anyway.

If we get tenders, it would be fun to have one of the last great American steam locos. I would like to see the N&W J class, which operated on express passenger and freight until the end of the 1950s. It is beautiful, I don't know what it would look like in TTD style.

The F class diesels of the postwar years were classics also.

Here is a separate but somewhat related question: Is there any control over the acceleration of trains? One thing I have noticed is that it seems to me the trains accelerate unrealistically fast, especially out of curves. One of the key points with electrified trains is that they accelerate faster, especially when all wheels are powered. Logically I would think a diesel-pulled engine, no matter how powerful, would take at least one square out of the curve to return to top speed, and possibly even two.

[Hyronymus]

GG1 would rock! What about an electric (or was it originally a diesel) locomotive from the late 40's. It's built by Baldwin for the New Haven railroad. The dutch will recognize it as the famous 1200 series.

[Dinges]

Dinges, it seems like Michael's set for the Temperate is most of what would be good. I would like to see, added to that set, the following:

The GG1 electric loco from the 1930s. It operated in line service until the late 1980s, was the most reliable engine of all time, and extremely powerful. It regularly operated faster than 100MPH, I think it could reach 120MPH on a straight track, but there isn't much of that in the Northeast Corridor. It could work with existing cars, or have a matching set in Pennsylvania maroon.

The Acela Express and HHP would both be nice additions, particularly if we remove all the old TTD locos from the list.

Suitable double-deck cars would look great and be useful.

The Bombardier JetTrain would be fun, it could use the same matching cars as the Acela Express which is what it's designed to do anyway.

If we get tenders, it would be fun to have one of the last great American steam locos. I would like to see the N&W J class, which operated on express passenger and freight until the end of the 1950s. It is beautiful, I don't know what it would look like in TTD style.

The F class diesels of the postwar years were classics also.

Here is a separate but somewhat related question: Is there any control over the acceleration of trains? One thing I have noticed is that it seems to me the trains accelerate unrealistically fast, especially out of curves. One of the key points with electrified trains is that they accelerate faster, especially when all wheels are powered. Logically I would think a diesel-pulled engine, no matter how powerful, would take at least one square out of the curve to return to top speed, and possibly even two.

Nice story but I need pictures, stats and that kind a stuff. (nice would be some websites like NedRail1435) Press "Technische Gegevens" in the menu and see what I mean.

And for the last question: NO, the only control is the power of the engine and the weight of the loco/train.

[krtaylor]

OK, Dinges, good point, no need to waste your valuable drawing time doing research! Here you are:

GG1:
http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/

Acela Express:
http://www.amtrak.com/trains/acelaexpress.html
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/tgv/acela.html
Basically it's a TGV in a different paint scheme, although for some reason the top of the loco is not at all as smooth as it looks in the pictures, it's a whole pile of electrical junk.

I already sent links for doubledecker cars.

HHP
http://lib2.clark.cc.oh.us/amtrak/amtACELAHHP8.html

Bombardier JetTrain
http://bombardier.com/
The whole site is Flash so I can't give you a direct link, but it's in there, along with lots of other cool stuff including more pix of the doubledecker cars which they also make. No livery for this one yet as nobody is actually using it.

N&W J class
http://www.retroweb.com/611lastrun.html

F9 diesel
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel23.html
This was operated by pretty much all of the North American railroads so there are about a million possible liveries, Just pick one that you like that looks good. It was used in both passenger and freight service. Notice it has A and B units - A units have the nice streamlined nose and cab, and B units are just boxes with round porthole windows. It would be great to offer both of them, set up kind of like the Swedish DM3 from Michael's Arctic set - A units pointing both directions, and a no-cab B unit to put in the middle. It was quite common to operate them in threes, with an A unit at each end pointing out, and a B in the middle.

I think this would round out the Temperate set. And we should turn off the old TTD engines so all you get are the new ones.

Then we can work on the East Asia sets?

[Dinges]

Alright this is the list thaty willbe in the set:

1. Acella Express - 150mph/6000hp - Livery: Amtrak
2. Acella HHP-8 - 135mph/8000hp - Livery: Amtrak
3. GG1 - 100mph/4620hp - Livery: ??Amtrak or Pensilvania??
4. Bombardier JetTrain - 150mph/5000hp - Livery ??Standart?? (Looks like Amtrak but in red, maybe for player color?)
5. N & W - ??/?? - Livery N&W
6. F9 - ??/?? - Livery: Unknown


Now we need a new set name, can you think up something maybe:

North America Set or something??

And which engines would you like to get replaced?? Maybe I can do a poll and see which engines get the most votes will be replaced.

[krtaylor]

Dinges, I have been thinking about my "acceleration" question. For the new engines, I assume we are using the real statistics of their horsepower. Therefore, one potential reason the acceleration is too fast is that the weights of the traincars are too low, or are proportionately too low for the power of the engine. If the engine was designed to pull 100 cars in real life and is only pulling 8 or 10 in TTD, with the same horsepower, of course it will accelerate too fast. We could increase the weight of the cars, or proportionately decrease the power of the engine. Another possibility is that the coefficient of drag around the corners is wrong, and I am almst certain I read that Patchman can control that.

[krtaylor]

Dinges, let me clarify something - the engines I listed won't make a set by themselves. They should be ADDED to the Temperate set already done by Michael. He doesn't like us changing his engines, but surely he won't mind if we contribute some new ones.

If we eliminate all the original TTD engines from Temperate, and add these new ones to MB's, we should have a fairly comprehensive set.

I agree with your analysis, with the following exceptions:

The GG1 in Amtrak scheme wasn't any great shakes. It should be in Pennsy brown/maroon, which was its most famous and longest livery.

Since nobody has actually painted the JetTrain in anything in particular, we might as well just make it the player color.

The F9 has so many possibilities it can be anything that looks good. The Great Northern scheme is considered to be one of the best, I have a model of it but no pic. The ACL and SAL had pretty nice liveries, you can see them here:
http://www.ianfleming.org/mkkbb/magazin ... ains.shtml
These engines aren't F9s but they are close enough for you to get the paint scheme off of.

If we do this set as I described, with MB's and these new ones, then yes, "North America" would be a logical name, or "Modern US."

I have another separate question. Some of the new locos have been disproportionately long and hang off the end of the curves, so you can't doublehead them. Nothing wrong with this, it isn't a complaint. Have you ever seen footage of the really big compound steam locos like the Big Boy going around a corner? They do exactly that, hang off the end of the corner, and they have a flat leading truck under the prow that takes the corner and, if it's sharp, sticks out almost completely from under the really long boiler. Would it be possible to design such an engine, where you put the "front half" (the low, flat leading truck) and then the "back half" (the really long boiler and cab that actually stuck out over the front truck almost completely)? This would look cool and even somewhat realistic.

[Centennial_Tycoon]

Tell me if i am correct - you want engines with a second part (like the old coal driven ones)

So u could in reality create a second engine and add it to the back of the engine - this is a very quick (and maybe poor) solution but thats what i have to offer!

[krtaylor]

Centennial, I wouldn't recommend that you try this for your very first one, it would be quite complicated. Also I don't know how you make a loco piece "larger" than it ought to be, I only know it can be done. I recommend that you first start with some of the Japanese equipment listed on my site because it has relatively simple lines and thus is easier to start with. Really I was asking this of Dinges, although he hasn't done any extra-large engines either that I know of. The only one I know who has is Michael and he is more than busy just now.

[Dinges]

Centennial, I wouldn't recommend that you try this for your very first one, it would be quite complicated. Also I don't know how you make a loco piece "larger" than it ought to be, I only know it can be done. I recommend that you first start with some of the Japanese equipment listed on my site because it has relatively simple lines and thus is easier to start with. Really I was asking this of Dinges, although he hasn't done any extra-large engines either that I know of. The only one I know who has is Michael and he is more than busy just now.

Offcourse is it possible to make long engines but they can't be faced backwards (I mean a part to the back). To the front is not that hard (I think) but it would need some more work, I could also just pick one of MB's enlonged engines and copy the code for it so it would be nicely positioned in a fast way.

[krtaylor]

Why don't we NOT spend time on figuring out the long-engine thing just yet, we have too many other projects going. When MB finishes his DB set perhaps he will be kind enough to share the secrets involved in long engines, this would save time in fiddling with his code. Anyway, most of those engines were dead or dying by 1950 when TTD normally starts. If we go ahead with the short little carriages and the older engines, then we can revisit this issue. Although really, I think those short carriages were about gone by 1880 anyway, except in England and France, so we would be going back like 100 years if we wanted to use them. Certainly in the US the bigger ones were used pretty quick, easier to handle and stronger.

[Dinges]

If we should realy make those little carriages we could not have enough veh. ID's left. Please put that in your mind. There are about 100 so there is not much to do with that.

But cars making smaller is something else than make them bigger becouse making smaller is a code to use it as eye-candy. The enlonging is just used as modding around with the length/height of the sprites.

BTW. Can we make a new topic about this, becouse this topic is for me to keep people informed and users with questions about it.

[krtaylor]

OK Dinges, if you have the authority, can you peel off all of this discussion and put it in a new topic, "Plans for Upcoming Trainsets"? Spaceman Spiff, if you are listening, I know you can do this, you've done it before.