Multitype presignals

Marcin_K · Post by **Marcin_K** » 21 Jan 2007 19:28

Hi there!

I couldn't find such suggestion using search. Maybe I used wrong keywords so sorry if it's allready been posted.

Anyway I am trying to make my network as 'real' as possible. So e.g. I do not build 'highway-like' crossings cause IMHO it looks unreal for railway. I also do not build multiplatform stations (>4) for freight routes - instead I have yards with many sidings where trains wait for being un-/loaded. I think this is how it looks like in reality - freight trains just wait at sidings.

So I came upon some problems with signalling and been wondering if there's any possibility to have different signal types on different sides of a two-way signal? I mean e.g. 'a vertical yellow bar' on one side and 'a vertical grey bar' signal on the other.

Thanks in advance for answer and sorry in advance if somebody already posted it

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 21 Jan 2007 19:41

I think you'll have to show us a screenshot where such a thing would be useful first.

Marcin_K · Post by **Marcin_K** » 21 Jan 2007 20:08

Here it is.

1.jpg
As you can see trains from 'upper left' direction turn through waypoint into the yard where they wait for their turn to use a free platform. They reverse into one of the platforms (of course they reverse only in real life) and after being loaded go into mainline heading 'upper left'.

The problem is that trains coming into the three sidings in the middle ignore green signals on free sidings in the yard and turn into occupied sidings. So I end up with trains facing each other on both sides of the signal. I belive that having multitype two-way signal would solve the problem. And allow more complex systems that simulate real networks.

On the second jpeg the problem is solved by adding a 'reverse siding' but that takes a lot more space.

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 21 Jan 2007 20:35

What you want would solve very little. Changing the signal just after Waypoint Prestown to a presignal would keep trains from entering the yard when the yard and station are both full, but that yard-entrance signal would still see the yard-exit combo signal, and turn green whenever the yard-exit signal turned green, possibly letting a train into the yard before one of the trains already in the yard had a chance to exit to the station.

And don't post JPEGs. Post PNGs.

Marcin_K · Post by **Marcin_K** » 21 Jan 2007 21:00

I know. That's why there's no presignal after Waypoint Prestown. This part of the track is not a siding (trains should not wait there - just pass and go into sidings). This is rather a yard entrance only to avoid blocking the mainline when another train reverses into platform. In reality there would be a dispatcher that would know about approaching train that needs to turn from the mainline and would stop traffic allready in the yard.

I've noticed that trains behave in different ways when there are 'the vertical grey bar' signals (sorry I forgot the name) and choose the right siding. When the signal is of different type they choose wrong.

Anyway TTD is a great game and what You guys do is great too. After many years of playing I came to an idea of doing it less efficient (like those 'highway-like' crossings I mentioned) but more realistic. More ideas I could think of are 'linked' signals - a presignal that is linked to a specific exit-signal(s).

Sorry for the jpegs

exeQT · Post by **exeQT** » 22 Jan 2007 12:37

As far as I can see on picture 2 the “Reverse siding” will work perfect just with out the two-way signal on “enter-exit” from the siding. In this case normal one-way signal will allow trains to enter the siding only one by one. So, no train will stop face-to-face on this point.

richk67 · Post by **richk67** » 22 Jan 2007 14:27

Marcin_K wrote:On the second jpeg the problem is solved by adding a 'reverse siding' but that takes a lot more space.

One sneaky little trick I have started using is the infinite capacity sidings called depots

Depots now have a presignal on their exit. So create the normal station entrance with presignal on the way in, and each platform with the exit-signals (white bars). Place a depot connected inside the junction but on a 1 track length spur. On this track piece, place a pre-exit-combo signal. (The vertical yellow bar).

If all platforms are full, the train will enter the depot. However, it will not emerge until a platform is clear. Its great for mopping up excess capacity, and works best at primary production stations (ie. not accepting cargo).

The only drawback to this scheme is that depots are not FIFO. So, as Brianetta once described, my scheme is First In Random Out.

(Im at work and cant post a screenie... sorry.)

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 22 Jan 2007 15:10

Something like this, possibly?

richk67 · Post by **richk67** » 22 Jan 2007 16:40

DaleStan wrote:Something like this, possibly?

Yup. Perfect. And if we had FIFO depots, then it would be the perfect compact siding.

cdosr · Post by **cdosr** » 22 Jan 2007 17:11

DaleStan wrote:I think you'll have to show us a screenshot where such a thing would be useful first.

I had such a signal in mind when I posted this:

http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=22278&start=44

It would get rid of the odd track configurations for priority lines.

Wolf01 · Post by **Wolf01** » 22 Jan 2007 17:31

there is already an entrance presignal in the depot, is useless to put a combo presignal in front of a depot

richk67 · Post by **richk67** » 22 Jan 2007 17:33

Wolf01 wrote:there is already an entrance presignal in the depot, is useless to put a combo presignal in front of a depot

I tried without the combo, and it didnt work the same. Cant remember exactly how, but I'll give it a look tonite.

XeryusTC · Post by **XeryusTC** » 22 Jan 2007 19:38

richk67 wrote:
Wolf01 wrote:there is already an entrance presignal in the depot, is useless to put a combo presignal in front of a depot
I tried without the combo, and it didnt work the same. Cant remember exactly how, but I'll give it a look tonite.

Without the combo signal the entry signal will turn red when all platforms are full and the depot will be of no use because the trains can't enter it. With the depot the entry signal will stay green if all platforms are full except when a train is entering/leaving the depot. This way the depot can act as a "buffer".
I would personally use a longer lane at the depot so trains don't slow down to a crawl when leaving or entering it and thus also blocking the entry/exit (in case of a terminus or through station).

Frostregen · Post by **Frostregen** » 22 Jan 2007 19:38

EDIT: some seconds to late

Marcin_K · Post by **Marcin_K** » 22 Jan 2007 23:21

As far as I can see on picture 2 the Reverse siding will work perfect just with out the two-way signal on enter-exit from the siding.

Of course exeQT you're right - the two-way signal is useless here. As I said the problem is solved using 'reverse siding'. I get face-to-face problems in 1.jpg solution.

And surely you can use any funny trick that is allowed in TTD but impossible in reality. As I said in my first post my challenge is to build 'real' networks.

In my opinion those two features - multitype signalls (not a new type of signal but fully customisable ones - ctrl-click on one or the other to change its type) and linking signalls (so that a presignal works with specific combos or exits, combo with specific anything) would be something really fresh in the game. What do you think?

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 23 Jan 2007 00:03

How would you display such things? More specifically, the signal linking? (Different types for different sides is obvious.)

Marcin_K · Post by **Marcin_K** » 23 Jan 2007 00:27

How about this:
A link between signals would be visualised by a semi-transparent straight line (let's say it's red). Of course the line is not always visible.

I guess you'd have to have a new tool - 'presignal link modification' or something. Choosing this tool and rolling mouse over a presignal diplays it's links (only 'forward' links - not the links that lead to the one but from it). Clicking a presignal with this tool 'focuses' on that signal and from now on clicking on an unlinked exit/combo-signal links to it and clicking a linked signal unlinks.

Hope you'd understand this mess...

This is what I can think of in the middle of the night. I guess there may be a flaw so I'll try again in the morning

I have no idea how signalling works from the programming side so I don't know if it's possible at all. It's just an idea that IMHO would allow more complex and challenging network designs.

EDIT #1: Offtopic suggestion (I've seen it in forum) - trains going backwards (at slow speed) combined with no train reversing at all (as an option) would make a small revolution. Going backwards could be added in train orders just like full load or unload - 'Go to New York (reverse)' or 'Go to London (backwards)'

However you'll still have to be able to add full load/unload...

EDIT #2: Changing direction of a train could be an order too. It would be realistic to change direction in a big station or in a yard where in reality there's usually a possibility to uncouple a loco and couple it on other trains end (of course it would be impossible to restrict players from using it anywhere in game but that's ok for me)

Marcin_K · Post by **Marcin_K** » 23 Jan 2007 13:54

Please read my previous post with edits.

Just another example of where multitype signalling and linked presignalling could work - almost every +2 platform terminus station. As you can see an empty train that left Malston Heights is waiting to turn into mainline. Another one (empty) has left platform and jammed the track that could be used by incoming train as there are free platforms.
Marked signals could use both features (multitype+linked).

I think the problem in TTD is not to build efficient junctions (which leads to solutions that look strange for railway) but to build efficient signaling systems (basics of every railway) which is hard to do with only three types of simple signals.

MagicBuzz · Post by **MagicBuzz** » 23 Jan 2007 14:16

the signal on the "exit" line of a station must be a "pre" signal (and not an exit signal).

then your train won't enter the crossway till the exit signal won't be green.

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 23 Jan 2007 14:23

But Marcin wants to do the reverse too -- prevent the train from leaving the (terminus) station until the signal that leads out of the crossway is green.

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