ECS vectors v1.1.2 (by George) 19/06/2011

[jacke]

Today I tried out the ECS vectors in the tropical climate in OTTD, and I found that no fruit plantations were generated. I tried to fund one myself, but I just get an error that they can't be built in rainforests. If I try to build them in the desert, I just get "This industry can't be built in desert" (which is correct behaviour I suppose).
I can add that I try place them near water as the wiki states as a requirement. I also tried to place it on sloped land, but I guess I should get a different error message if that was the problem? Is sloped land really a requirement? In a temperate map I generated, fruit plantations appeared on flat ground too.

No, sloped land is not a requirement, but possibility. On the picture it looks like a rain forest. You should build between the rain forest and desert. Try the land edge for example. As for error message - yes, it should display different, message for every check.

Yes, I tried to build them on the tiles "between" rainforest and desert, but no success. It still complains that they can't be built in rainforests. I have tried a lot of locations without success. Also, I feel something has to be wrong when the map generator fails to place one single fruit plantation on a 512x512 tropical map (same result with both original and new land generator). In temperate and arctic games, they are everywhere.

[George]

They can't be built near other factories, sawmills, glass works nor steel mills.

Now that Dyes have been substituted for Forest Products, shouldn't this be changed to "They can't be built near other factories, chemical plants, glass works nor steel mills."?
Also, please define "near" ... what is the minimum number of tiles required to separate these industries?

Yes.
In most cases near means 16 tiles, unless other is specified. Write 16, I'll fix it where required.

[George]

Today I tried out the ECS vectors in the tropical climate in OTTD, and I found that no fruit plantations were generated. I tried to fund one myself, but I just get an error that they can't be built in rainforests. If I try to build them in the desert, I just get "This industry can't be built in desert" (which is correct behaviour I suppose).
I can add that I try place them near water as the wiki states as a requirement. I also tried to place it on sloped land, but I guess I should get a different error message if that was the problem? Is sloped land really a requirement? In a temperate map I generated, fruit plantations appeared on flat ground too.

No, sloped land is not a requirement, but possibility. On the picture it looks like a rain forest. You should build between the rain forest and desert. Try the land edge for example. As for error message - yes, it should display different, message for every check.

Yes, I tried to build them on the tiles "between" rainforest and desert, but no success. It still complains that they can't be built in rainforests. I have tried a lot of locations without success. Also, I feel something has to be wrong when the map generator fails to place one single fruit plantation on a 512x512 tropical map (same result with both original and new land generator). In temperate and arctic games, they are everywhere.

I made some tests and I can confirm the problem. It looks like in OTTD (it is fine in TTDP) every non-desert tile is rainforest tile. Even the water tile. I will make a bug report.

[wallyweb]

And yes, Wally did not do it yet ).

I don't know what you are complaining about.
The Factory is done.
Please check it very carefully because once you accept it, it will be the template I will use for the other industries.
I will wait for your comments.

[George]

in the tropical climate in OTTD no fruit plantations were generated.

Fixed in r11965.

[George]

And yes, Wally did not do it yet ).

I don't know what you are complaining about.
The Factory is done.
Please check it very carefully because once you accept it, it will be the template I will use for the other industries.
I will wait for your comments.

Unfortunately, you cant use the same template for all the industries. At least now there are 4 schemas of industry productions, which have sub schemas too (Tourist centre, factory, mine, steel mill)

[wallyweb]

Unfortunately, you cant use the same template for all the industries. At least now there are 4 schemas of industry productions, which have sub schemas too (Tourist centre, factory, mine, steel mill)

1. The tourist centers are already done.
2. When I said industries I did not mean to include resources which of course are very different.
3. We will look at the steel mill when we get to it.

By template I meant the general lay out. Of course the details will be different.
You did not mention how the Factory's page looked. Is it acceptable? I may need to make some changes to it so let me know asap so I can move on to the others.

[Roujin]

Question: Is the "advanced closure mechanism" mentioned in the wiki, but not yet described (it says "to write: what does it mean?" on the General Information page) the stuff where an industry says "[Industry X] requests [some sort Y of] service, or it will close within 24 months"?

Because that applies to the factory aswell: In a game I played the factory demanded proper goods service or it would be closed within 24 months. (or is that not intended behavior?)
But (if this is what you call the "advanced closure mechanism") it is not mentioned on the factory wiki page. About closing, it just says:

When the industry has a very low production level and did not produce enough cargo in the previous month, it tests for close down conditions. Industries in service have a close down chance reduced by 50%. Newly built industries can be closed only if they are at least 2 years old. Industries, built by the random map generator or map editor, can be closed only if they are at least 5 years old. A close down chance is 3%.

No word of the "advanced closure mechanism" here..

(hope i helped you somewhat and not only confused you )

[wallyweb]

... Factory ...

The Factory wiki page was just rewritten yesterday. If you check my post above, you will see that George has been asked to review it. This means that you can't take it as truth yet. Please wait until George has had a chance to review its contents. I'm sure there will be changes. We are working as best we can to make the information clear and simple to understand. You can help. After reading the page, is there any information there that you think is not needed and is there any information missing?

[electricmonk]

Oh, i thought it was like i said(i am used with this kind of version system) but if i remember correctly it is ECS Town,Basic,Machinery Beta 3 December releases(about 6-11 December). Sorry i dint save that date to my brain.

Your wish is my command...

Attatched are the ECS vectors (not the complete set) from 6-12-07. Also attatched are the equivalent ECS vectors from 26-11-07. If starting a new game, I would recommend you use the latest vectors, but if like me, you updated the vectors and realised your industries became screwed up (yes, I know I can manually re-build the damaged industries by demolishing the ones that look like coalmines, but even so, my current save-game is more suited to having factories accepting wood-products rather than dyes) you should use the old vectors until you start a new game. Fortunately, I kept a backup copy of my GRF files which I restored when I realised that factories and banks looked like coalmines. This has lead to me having 2 sets of GRFs which I attatch to this post.

ECS_20071126.rar

ECS_20071126.rar:
Town vector beta 3: 25-11-07
Basic vector for Arctic: 13-01-06
Chemicals vector: 21-10-07
Machinery vector beta 3: 26-11-07
Wood vector beta 3: 22-10-2007
Agricultural vector beta 3: 04-11-07
Construction vector by Pikka: 18-10-07 (note that this is incompatible with the one of the other vectors in this set - use more recent versions to solve compatibility issues or do not use this construction vector).

(1.01 MiB) Downloaded 101 times

ECS_20071206.rar

ECS_20071206.rar:
Town vector beta 3: 6-12-2007
Basic vector for Arctic: 6-12-07
Chemicals vector: 2-12-2007
Machinery vector beta 3: 6-12-07
Wood vector beta 3: 2-12-2007
Agricultural vector beta 3: 2-12-07
Construction vector by Pikka: 2-12-07

(1.02 MiB) Downloaded 92 times

AE.

PS. What is the latest version of whichever vectors changed when the factories accepted dyes instead of wood-products just before the change occured, and if these are different from my version of the GRFs, I would appreciate it if somebody posted these.

[Roujin]

ok then..
I just read it through again and I generally found the page very understandable and not lacking any information.

If any, some minor remarks:
* put the picture of era 1 at the bottom amongst the other eras aswell, even if it already was at the top of the page; it would be nicer to compare the different eras
* at the tables, i'd like to have the percentage numbers corresponding to the production levels, e.g. instead of "Very low"; "Low"; "Normal" and so on have "Very low (1 - 5%)"; "Low (6 - 15%)" and so on, whatever the right numbers are.
* also at the table under "Production change", if I read the text right for decreasing the amount of goods produced is checked and for increasing the amount of steel waiting is checked; so it would be nice to have this piece of information in the table aswell, e.g. instead of the column "Decrease" -> "Decrease (Goods produced)" and "Increase" -> "Increase (Steel waiting)"

* Ah and just now I'm missing some information: what if there's no steel defined? Does it increase with amount of Glass waiting then? And what if steel IS defined, but I decide to deliver only Glass to the factory? According to what's written at the top of the wiki page the factory can also handle Glass without Steel. So does it stay at the lowest production level if I just deliver glass, no steel?

[wallyweb]

ok then..
I just read it through again and I generally found the page very understandable and not lacking any information.

If any, some minor remarks: ...

Thank you Roujin.
The data and structure of the tables were done by George. I think he will be changing some of the values as the ones you see are for the old Factory. We'll have to wait for his comment. He should have some information about your last question too.

[Draakon]

@electricmonk: Thanks, but the reason i want the old one is for the new coal mines

@wallyweb: very good, you should use it for the rest of the wiki pages too.

[wallyweb]

@wallyweb: very good, you should use it for the rest of the wiki pages too.

Thank you. That is already planned. Look here.

[George]

Unfortunately, you cant use the same template for all the industries. At least now there are 4 schemas of industry productions, which have sub schemas too (Tourist centre, factory, mine, steel mill)

1. The tourist centers are already done.

Now they support advanced closure

3. We will look at the steel mill when we get to it.

And glass works

By template I meant the general lay out. Of course the details will be different.
You did not mention how the Factory's page looked. Is it acceptable? I may need to make some changes to it so let me know asap so I can move on to the others.

well, lets' go

The Factory produces Goods.
The Factory accepts nothing (has no input) if the Town Vector is loaded alone or with the Agricultural Vector and/or the Wood Vector and/or the Construction Vector or the PikkaBird Construction Vector and no other Vectors.
The Factory accepts Glass if the Basic Vector is loaded.
The Factory accepts Dyes if the Chemical Vector is loaded.
The Factory accepts Steel if the Machinery Vector is loaded.
The Factory will accept any combination of those cargoes, depending upon which Vectors are respectively loaded.

I do not think it is a right way to define accepting. Even when these vectors are loaded, other industry GRFs can redefine the cargoes, that would change the accepting. So, the right way is

Factory accepts glass if glass is defined

BTW, it accepts ceramics if glass is not defined, and ceramics is defined.

I would like to underline this: ECS vectors can be loaded with other industry GRFs at once, and if these GRFs try to follow the ECS schema, it should be rather playable. For test, I just loaded Pikka's basic industries and ECS vectors in temperate and arctic in OTTD (because the industry limit is 64, not 37 types. Also, there are some problems in tropic because of rubber, I'll have a look later). All the accepted/produced cargoes were fine (Pikka's industries were placed after ECS, so the cargo names were Pikkas names. So, ECS sawmill produced lumber instead of wood products, but all the amounts were the same).
Yes, I understand that the sets are rather different (for example ECS vector's stock piles are much larger, than Pikka's ones) and the player would not load them both at once, but technically it is possible.

If a player has loaded only Vectors such that the Factory only accepts Dyes, the Dyes will have no effect upon the Factory's production of Goods.

Wrong. It produces goods from nothing and Dyes then (BTW, I never tested this case ) that means it should produce some cargo in any case and produce more if dyes are waiting.

The Factory can be built by a player both in a game and in the scenario editor.
In a game, the building cost is £468,640/$937,280.
Factories have 24 possible layouts.
Factories support snow and company colours.

this does not fit well to "Possible locations" title

Factories change graphics over time (folowing TTRSv3's second parameter). The change occurs independently for each tile. If TTRSv3 is not detected, the Factory follows TTRSv3's default era time sequence.

This fits even worse. It better fits into general.

When a factory processes only Steel, values from the table are used.

The table should look this way: (amount of goods produced form one cargo, amount of steel, amount of glass)
73 45 122
154 93 257
324 192 540
680 396 1134
1429 817 2381
3000 1685 5000
Processing of both the cargo goes independently, so you can achieve up to 6000 goods (without dyes)
When amount of produced goods (from steel/glass or nothing if no steel of glass are represented) is calculated, it is increased by 9/5 of used dyes, while used dyes are calculated as goods / 4 (if required amount is waiting)
The following text is outdated.

The Factory can use up to twice as much Dyes or Glass than Steel (in tons) and the amount of Goods produced is limited to 225% in comparison to Goods produced from Steel alone. This amount of Goods determines the proportional consumption of Dyes and Glass.

Increasing production levels are calculated by comparing the amount of Steel waiting to be processed with the value represented in the table.

not steel, but max (steel, glass*3)

Increasing production on any production level also requires at least 50% of Goods being transported.

on normal level and above

The factory uses advanced closure. Protection conditions are:
Prod level > 04 (very low)
steel + glass/3 + dyes > 1024 (amount of any cargoes waiting)
it is younger than 5(2) years (5 for factories generated by map generator / SE, 2 - in game)
it is the last one on the map
the following text is outdated:

When the industry has a very low production level and did not produce enough cargo in the previous month, it tests for close down conditions. Industries in service have a close down chance reduced by 50%. Newly built industries can be closed only if they are at least 2 years old. Industries, built by the random map generator or map editor, can be closed only if they are at least 5 years old. A close down chance is 3%.

all the industries with advanced closures now use 1% chance to start closure counter every month if they are not protected. As soon as any protection event happens, the counter is dropped.

[wallyweb]

Unfortunately, you cant use the same template for all the industries. At least now there are 4 schemas of industry productions, which have sub schemas too (Tourist centre, factory, mine, steel mill)

1. The tourist centers are already done.

Now they support advanced closure

Please define advanced closure.
Will all your industries support this?

3. We will look at the steel mill when we get to it.

And glass works

And the glass works .... and any other industry.

The Factory produces Goods.
The Factory accepts nothing (has no input) if the Town Vector is loaded alone or with the Agricultural Vector and/or the Wood Vector and/or the Construction Vector or the PikkaBird Construction Vector and no other Vectors.
The Factory accepts Glass if the Basic Vector is loaded.
The Factory accepts Dyes if the Chemical Vector is loaded.
The Factory accepts Steel if the Machinery Vector is loaded.
The Factory will accept any combination of those cargoes, depending upon which Vectors are respectively loaded.

I do not think it is a right way to define accepting. Even when these vectors are loaded, other industry GRFs can redefine the cargoes, that would change the accepting. So, the right way is

Factory accepts glass if glass is defined

I am working on a simple, easily understood way to say all this.

BTW, it accepts ceramics if glass is not defined, and ceramics is defined.

If the Tropic Vector is loaded.

I would like to underline this: ECS vectors can be loaded with other industry GRFs at once, and if these GRFs try to follow the ECS schema, it should be rather playable. For test, I just loaded Pikka's basic industries and ECS vectors in temperate and arctic in OTTD (because the industry limit is 64, not 37 types. Also, there are some problems in tropic because of rubber, I'll have a look later). All the accepted/produced cargoes were fine (Pikka's industries were placed after ECS, so the cargo names were Pikkas names. So, ECS sawmill produced lumber instead of wood products, but all the amounts were the same).
Yes, I understand that the sets are rather different (for example ECS vector's stock piles are much larger, than Pikka's ones) and the player would not load them both at once, but technically it is possible.

Mentioning other industry sets makes this very complicated. Something like this needs to go on a page by itself or the general information page. It does not belong on the Factory page.

If a player has loaded only Vectors such that the Factory only accepts Dyes, the Dyes will have no effect upon the Factory's production of Goods.

Wrong. It produces goods from nothing and Dyes then (BTW, I never tested this case ) that means it should produce some cargo in any case and produce more if dyes are waiting.

This is not what I understood from a previous question. Ok ... so dyes do affect production even if vectors with steel and/or glass (ceramics too) are not loaded.

The Factory can be built by a player both in a game and in the scenario editor.
In a game, the building cost is £468,640/$937,280.
Factories have 24 possible layouts.
Factories support snow and company colours.

this does not fit well to "Possible locations" title

I'll find a way to fix it.

Factories change graphics over time (folowing TTRSv3's second parameter). The change occurs independently for each tile. If TTRSv3 is not detected, the Factory follows TTRSv3's default era time sequence.

This fits even worse. It better fits into general.

and instead of "Factory" we should say "Industries" ?

When a factory processes only Steel, values from the table are used.

The table should look this way: (amount of goods produced form one cargo, amount of steel, amount of glass)
73 45 122
154 93 257
324 192 540
680 396 1134
1429 817 2381
3000 1685 5000
Processing of both the cargo goes independently, so you can achieve up to 6000 goods (without dyes)
When amount of produced goods (from steel/glass or nothing if no steel of glass are represented) is calculated, it is increased by 9/5 of used dyes, while used dyes are calculated as goods / 4 (if required amount is waiting)
The following text is outdated.

The Factory can use up to twice as much Dyes or Glass than Steel (in tons) and the amount of Goods produced is limited to 225% in comparison to Goods produced from Steel alone. This amount of Goods determines the proportional consumption of Dyes and Glass.

Increasing production levels are calculated by comparing the amount of Steel waiting to be processed with the value represented in the table.

not steel, but max (steel, glass*3)

Increasing production on any production level also requires at least 50% of Goods being transported.

on normal level and above

The factory uses advanced closure. Protection conditions are:
Prod level > 04 (very low)
steel + glass/3 + dyes > 1024 (amount of any cargoes waiting)
it is younger than 5(2) years (5 for factories generated by map generator / SE, 2 - in game)
it is the last one on the map
the following text is outdated:

When the industry has a very low production level and did not produce enough cargo in the previous month, it tests for close down conditions. Industries in service have a close down chance reduced by 50%. Newly built industries can be closed only if they are at least 2 years old. Industries, built by the random map generator or map editor, can be closed only if they are at least 5 years old. A close down chance is 3%.

all the industries with advanced closures now use 1% chance to start closure counter every month if they are not protected. As soon as any protection event happens, the counter is dropped.

I'll work on these. I think this is becoming too complicated. You are trying to give the player too much information. Please define:
- Advanced Closure
- Protection

This may take several days.

[mart3p]

When using the ECS Basic Vector the image of the 'Foster Bus' is missing from the purchase list and other windows. If I remove the Basic Vector, the bus appears. The same occurs in both TTDPatch and OpenTTD.

[George]

When using the ECS Basic Vector the image of the 'Foster Bus' is missing from the purchase list and other windows. If I remove the Basic Vector, the bus appears. The same occurs in both TTDPatch and OpenTTD.

I'll fix it with next update
Edit: please test it

[George]

Please define advanced closure.

Every industry that is not protected (it does not fit ANY protection condition) has 1% (1/128 to be exact) chance to start closure counter. When the counter is 24 and 12, it displays a warning (the industry will be closed in 24/12 months). When the counter goes to 0, the industry closes down. If ANY protection condition happens, the counter is dropped to 0 (closure date not defined).

Will all your industries support this?

Yes.

I am working on a simple, easily understood way to say all this.

But if a player would load not only ECS vectors, he will get the result, different from the wiki. It should be described somehow .

BTW, it accepts ceramics if glass is not defined, and ceramics is defined.

If the Tropic Vector is loaded.

Yes

Mentioning other industry sets makes this very complicated. Something like this needs to go on a page by itself or the general information page. It does not belong on the Factory page.

Agree.

Wrong. It produces goods from nothing and Dyes then (BTW, I never tested this case ) that means it should produce some cargo in any case and produce more if dyes are waiting.

This is not what I understood from a previous question. Ok ... so dyes do affect production even if vectors with steel and/or glass (ceramics too) are not loaded.

They should. But I never tested it

Factories change graphics over time (folowing TTRSv3's second parameter). The change occurs independently for each tile. If TTRSv3 is not detected, the Factory follows TTRSv3's default era time sequence.

This fits even worse. It better fits into general.

and instead of "Factory" we should say "Industries" ?

Currently only factory and power plant supports this feature.

I'll work on these. I think this is becoming too complicated. You are trying to give the player too much information. Please define:
- Advanced Closure

It is when the industry gives closure message in advance (24 moths)

- Protection

Is the group of conditions, that allows/disallows closure. "Protected" industries can not close unless they become unprotected. "Unprotected industries" use advanced closure every month (with a 1% success probability)

This may take several days.

Fine. Good luck!

[wallyweb]

I am working on a simple, easily understood way to say all this.

But if a player would load not only ECS vectors, he will get the result, different from the wiki. It should be described somehow .

Mentioning other industry sets makes this very complicated. Something like this needs to go on a page by itself or the general information page. It does not belong on the Factory page.

Agree.

I agree it should be described, but not on each Industry page. It should go in a General Information page. Perhaps something like this:
"Disclaimer - The descriptions in the following pages deal with ECSVectors only. It is possible for other Industry sets to be used alongside ECSVectors Industries, but we have no control over the content of those sets. The results of such combinations may be unexpected and may break ECSVectors Industries. It is not the responsibility of ECSVectors Industries to work alongside other Industry sets, and we will make adjustments only if it is reasonable and it fits well with the ECSVectors concept."

Currently only factory and power plant supports this feature.

If it deals with more than one Industry, it should go in a General Description page.

"Protected" industries can not close unless they become unprotected.

How do they become unprotected?