Russia-Ukraine Conflict

[michael blunck]

I wonder, maybe Crimea has oil reserves offshore or something like that ?

No, it has not.

As should already be known, both Crimea and Ukraine (except some small western regions once belonging to Poland/Lithuania and Austria/Hungary) were parts of Russia for many years (Crimea since 1783 - surrendered from Ottoman Empire), Ukraine since 1654 - treaty of Pereyaslav). It was only by Khrushchev that both Crimea and the eastern and southern parts of today´s Ukraine were integrated into the Ukrainian SSR (they had all been part of the Russian SFSR before), and stayed with the new independant state of Ukraine after dissolution of the USSR in 1991 (already by Western "intervention", the Russian population of these regions had severe problems with accepting this solution and needed special concessions (like autonomy for Crimea) for approval).

With regards to requested justification of the Russian marine bases on Crimea, let´s look at it the other way round: what´s the strategic use of US bases like Ramstein/Germany or Guantanamo/Cuba? Would anybody believe the US would tolerate privation?

But anyway, let´s hear what Paul Craig Roberts has to say w/r to current events: The Looting Of Ukraine Has Begun.

regards
Michael

[Chris]

Much of France used to be part of England, so we can take some troops over because we disagree with hollande right?

[YNM]

From mb's explanation, it's probably due to nationalism (or greed maybe, wrt trades).

But had there later discovered even more deposits of metals (iron, copper, anything else in really small fractions) there I guess it's fully because of greed.

[michael blunck]

But had there later discovered even more deposits of metals (iron, copper, anything else in really small fractions) there I guess it's fully because of greed.

Exactly that´s the reason the EU wants to integrate only an undivided Ukraine, because the western part is only a poorhouse, nearly all of the industries and natural resources are in the east.

regards
Michael

[vear]

It's not only about the EU, western Ukraine by itself wouldn't survive at all. The reason the east is pro-Russian is fairly simple. They were part of the Soviet Union since its beginnings in 1917 (and earlier tormented by Tsarist Russia). Their brains were washed generation by generation, so that Ukrainian ethnicity is weaker among these people. The west, however, used to be Polish until WW2, thus they had easier time managing to preserve their roots until today (mostly), as Poland never imposed hate-powered state propaganda in Russian manner to Ukrainians inhabiting Polish lands.

Anyway, history isn't the right key to defining modern frontiers. This is just the background being discussed a little too much. Crimean parliament wants to join Russian federation, true. However, the people there consider themselves Crimean; their Russian ancestry doesn't automatically involve themselves being for such transformation. They should be given the freedom to choose, but current deeds definitely bias a hypothetical referendum.

[YNM]

Maybe my teacher was right that alignment, cooperation, oppositions aren't eternal; only interests are.

[kamnet]

http://time.com/16294/russia-crimea-sevastopol/

Russian troops and pro-Russian civilian forces attempted to invade a Ukrainian air force base in Sevastopol. After ramming through the main gates and securing part of the facilities, they attempted to negotiate a surrender, but failed and withdrew. Russian forces are gone, but armed civilians are still lingering about. Reportedly several TV crews were assaulted or ordered to stop recording while the attack took place, and some members of the media have turned up missing. Russian leaders are still denying that official Russian military personnel are participating, despite vehicles bearing Russian military plates being observed throughout Crimea.

The Crimean voter referendum scheduled for March 16 only has two options: in favor of joining to Russian Federation, or in favor of remaining autonomous and rolling back to the 1992 constitution. There is no option in favor of remaining a part of Ukraine, and any ballot without a vote for the two listed options will be considered invalid.

[TinyMusic]

Much of France used to be part of England, so we can take some troops over because we disagree with hollande right?

No, because there isn't a majority of ethnic English people living in these places, and if there was, they would have to agree that they want to be part of England.

[Wahazar]

Still dejavu - identical arguments as in this thread, were presented during the Munich Agreement in 1938.
Czechoslovakia has treaty with allies, but come'on, if German in Sudetenland want to join to fuhrer,
save the peace, give him what he wants, it should stop his expansion.

Wake up!

Yesterday Georgia, today - Ukraine, tomorrow - Moldova, what next?

Fortunately China woke up and made attempt to slow down Putin's expansion:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... -restraint
(as usual in diplomatic notes, title and introduction is not important, last sentence is most important)

I don't want to stay on any side, especially I don't want to support right wing of Ukrainian nationalists.
Personally I like Russians, I've visited Russia and other post-USSR countries many times,
I'm impressed by the size and beauty of Russia and especially RŻD (travelled transsib 4x),
the only avoidable thing, is a way in which Russia can visit me:

[YNM]

Didn't make any sense for me until now, your dejâ vu thing. Maybe because I'm bad at WWI - WWII thing but could be anything else.

For me, it's maybe just an usual sickness with ex-USSR countries, maybe : getting freedom, or go back to the hands of stepparent ? Or greed. Or silly nationalism - ethnicism.

[kamnet]

Some post-Soviet countries like Kazakhstan have done well for themselves economically. Others, like Georgia and Ukraine, have struggled and thus are more tempted to maintain alliances with more economically stable Russia.

In today's headlines:

• Ukraine's foreign minister receives ministers from Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands.
• US ambassador says the Crimean referendum isn't legitimate and will not be recognized.
• Putin says the vote is legitimate and in-line with international law.
• Russia's foreign minister continues to insist that "lawlessness" exists in eastern Ukraine.
• Ukraine has turned away Russian citizens at its borders.
• http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... t-22846257

[Zakos]

Is there actually a possibility of this getting out of hand? Whenever I consider it, it seems too surreal and I usual call BS on anyone who shouts something about WWIII.

[Auge]

Hello

In today's headlines:

• US ambassador says the Crimean referendum isn't legitimate and will not be recognized.
• Putin says the vote is legitimate and in-line with international law.

*btw* That's the way an election campain should be handled!

flawless democrats

Tschö, Auge

[Kogut]

Is there actually a possibility of this getting out of hand? Whenever I consider it, it seems too surreal and I usual call BS on anyone who shouts something about WWIII.

Depends on how you define "getting out of hand". It already passed "normal protests" but it is light years away from WWIII (suggestion that WWIII is in any, even smallest way possible due to this conflict is the most absurd thing that I heard this year).

[vear]

Personally I like Russians, I've visited Russia and other post-USSR countries many times,
I'm impressed by the size and beauty of Russia and especially RŻD (travelled transsib 4x),
the only avoidable thing, is a way in which Russia can visit me:

That's a truly amazing thing about Russians, to some extent applicable to the rest of post-soviet republics. The people's attitude towards the whole world is directly opposite to what their authorities present: they're generally all helpful, hospitable and open to whoever comes. Just unlike their government, the police, customs officers and so on.

Some post-Soviet countries like Kazakhstan have done well for themselves economically. Others, like Georgia and Ukraine, have struggled and thus are more tempted to maintain alliances with more economically stable Russia.

Those who are especially interested in Russian support are those who form the inner circles, as this way they can consume vast amounts of donations the Kremlin sends however they want. That's at least how things are going on with Abkhazia and South Osetia, both separatist republics claiming independence from Georgia, receiving huge financial support from Russia, but utterly failing to utilise this money to actually do anything for their own citizens.

[michael blunck]

US ambassador says the Crimean referendum isn't legitimate and will not be recognized.

Depends on the level of legitimacy. Even the affiliation of Crimea with the Ukrainian SSR by Krjuchev in 1954 seems to have been already illegitimate in terms of law of nations. Sasse in "The Crimea Question: Identity, Transition, and Conflict, Harvard University Press 2007" is pointing out that this act had been carried out as part of a power struggle between Krjuchev (he was Ukrainian and former head of Ukrainian KP) and Malenkow after Stalin´s death in 1953. Only a very small circle seems to have been involved into this action, including Leonid Kiritchenko, current party head of Ukrainian KP and at that time candidate for the central committee of CPSU. And according to the Constitution of the Soviet Union, that decision would have to be resolved upon by both the Soviets of Ukraine and Russia, but allegedly only their executive committees had been involved.

After declaration of independece of Ukrains in 1991, this was already heavily criticed when only in 1992 some very few documents became accessible. But as well as the nullification of the SU´s declaration of dissolution with regards to independency of former Soviet Republics by the Stately Duma in march 1996, these (and other) endeavours were all overthrown by Yeltsin, a known partisan of "the West".

And o/c, there are other questionable events since 1991, e.g. the continuous alterations of constitutions of both Ukraine and Crimea. Insofar, trying to refer to "legitimacy" in the realm of former Soviet Republics means to walk on swampy grounds, at best.

*btw* That's the way an election campain should be handled!

Humble. Western election propaganda is always better!

moskau_ruhr_600px.png (361.96 KiB) Viewed 2915 times

regards
Michael

[Wahazar]

Ruhrgebiet?



It is a region pointed by upper black double arrow, right?

[Louie Armstrong]

Just to throw a conspiracy sized curve ball into the mix.

One I heard today is that the Plane that has gone missing recently was "appropriated" by russia to detract away from what is going on in Ukraine.

Please be aware these are not my views!

[bvoice360]

Our local politicians are too wimpy to stick up for Russia and send in the..... oh, i dunno. Maybe the Army's brass band, a Navy motorboat and the RAF's stock of decommissioned Sopwith Camels (it's all they've got left now).

[Dave]

I take offence to that. We've got the biggest aircraft carrier in the world... In bits... In a Scottish port