Virgin to lose West Coast?

[Geo Ghost]

One thing that is really p***ing me off at the moment, and sorry I really need to let this off my chest.
People that I know who have slated Virgin for ages saying how bad they are, how rubbish the service it, blaming them for delays (most of which were nothing t do with the company such as a person jumping in front of the train... yup, really the fault of Virgin that one).
Anyway, these same people are now blabbing around going "Why are they getting rid of Virgin! They are so much better than First! We need them to stay. They are great-" blah blah blah.

Bloody hypocritical pretentious morons. Yet again, my distaste for an unfortunately large number of rail enthusiasts is revealed again

I admit, I'm not the greatest fan of FirstGroup at times, but I don't judge the entire company on the actions of a view. I know there are good things that have been done and likewise, I know that no rail company is perfect. But jesus christ... some people really.. arg!

Rant over.

[John]

Apologies for the double post - but I thought I would try and summaries some details in the press releases.

First will:
Increase frequencies and serve new destinations non-stop
Cut ticket prices
Spend £22million upgrading stations
Increase profit 3 fold to pay for the franchise.
Somehow.



They will also introduce 11 6-car trains between Birmingham to Edinburgh. Does anyone know what these will be?
Are they just the 4 new 11-car Pendolinos Virgin ordered, but postponned introducing until after the franchise was agreed? (But curiously will still get introduced through Virgin Rail Projects)?

Also, I assume First's mention of increasing capacity refers to the current increase that is ongoing by lengthening to 11-car? Likewise I assume stations have just been renovated for this - so not sure where First will (or when?) spend their £22 million.

Finally, the contract Virgin has with Alstom for maintaining the fleet expires with the franchise. Somehow I am expecting Alstom to really try and milk First for maintenance...


[edit]Ah Geo, thanks for preventing the double post. I also recommend reading the bit on the "love-hate relationship" here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19093328. Although you are British, so you should know....

[Geo Ghost]

First will:
Increase frequencies and serve new destinations non-stop
Cut ticket prices
Spend £22million upgrading stations
Increase profit 3 fold to pay for the franchise.
Somehow.

I'll be amazed if they achieve just one of those, let alone the four of them.

Found this interview with Richard Branson. Interesting listen, you can certainly tell he's disappointed. I totally agree with what he says, and not just because I favour Virgin over First, but because I do believe he's right. Rather annoying that the woman interviewing him interrupts on an interesting bit I wanted to hear about.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19271133

He mentioned about releasing what they had planned for the franchise tomorrow. That's something I would love to read.

[Dave]

The "new" six car trains may well be Voyagers with a pantograph car which has been mooted for a while?

Or they'll get them from Siemens.

[Geo Ghost]

The "new" six car trains may well be Voyagers with a pantograph car

Hey, things are looking up already!
Still never understood why there's so much dislike for Voyagers. Really can't understand it. Still nobody has ever given me a good reason.
"oh god a voyager. Destroy it!"
"Why do you hate them?"
"Because they are horrible"
"Why..?"
"oh look! I class 87! Wow!"
"-_-"

That is actually a conversation I had not too long ago...
Can we make up a new term for people who are passionate about railways, but don't want to associate themselves with the moron enthusiasts.

I am curious about all these plans that First claims to do. After looking at some videos and pictures of how the WCML used to be when Virgin took it over... good god. It's amazing how much they've done. First have a LOT to live up too and are stepping into some very big shoes it seems.

[Chris]

Personally I don't really like Voyagers because the only experience I have had with them is on the XC network. If I see a HST coming down the platform then I know I'll have a much better chance of getting a seat than if I see a Voyager approaching. Of course there is also the narrower interior & smelly toilets, but I've never really been bothered by either of those. Oh and the fact that the coaches have engines in, but again that's never bothered me.

[Kevo00]

He mentioned about releasing what they had planned for the franchise tomorrow. That's something I would love to read.

Let's be honest though, had Virgin won they would also have faced a very steep increase in premium payments up to c. £300m a year, so their bid was hardly sustainable either.

First shares closed 6.2% down; Stagecoach was up by 1.9%. Speaks for itself really. How long before First have to transfer profits from other businesses, or even drive costs down elsewhere, to cover the WCML hole?

[Redirect Left]

As a matter of curiosity, and purely hypothetical. If the government were to do what many people are trying to do - see http://www.bringbackbritishrail.org, is that actually a workable and feasible suggestion, or just a non workable fantasy by many people that would be near impossible to re implement?

First will:
Increase frequencies and serve new destinations non-stop
Cut ticket prices
Spend £22million upgrading stations
Increase profit 3 fold to pay for the franchise.
Somehow.

I'd be amazed if they managed to to do one of them without them going under or something dramatic happening.

[RFT]

As a matter of curiosity, and purely hypothetical. If the government were to do what many people are trying to do - see http://www.bringbackbritishrail.org, is that actually a workable and feasible suggestion, or just a non workable fantasy by many people that would be near impossible to re implement?

It could be done, longer term by simply letting the franchises expire one by one and setting up the DfT shadow companies to run them once the franchise ends (in much the same way as we've seen with failed franchises in the past). the downside to that is the time that would take to happen across the whole network is probably longer than your average parliament and of course if you lose an election it's all up for grabs again.

Assuming that works, you'd still be left with the ROSCOs and the freight companies. freight seems to be working well enough in private hands so you might was well leave it alone. the ROSCOs are more problematic and would need to be bought out. or, the DFT could perhaps allow them to continue to exist so at least borrowing to spend on rolling stock is off the treasury balance sheet (even if it's ultimately all paid for by the taxpayer anyway).

I don't see why, practically, the above scenario wouldn't be workable, but there's got to be the political will to do it. the hardest bit of re-nationalisation, network rail, has already been done (the actual legal status of the company is really odd, but effectively it's state-owned in most logical respects). the franchisees don't really own anything other than contracts...

[Kevo00]

The above is correct, but political will apart the biggest barrier is possibly EU directive 91/440, which tends to entrench the infrastructure/operations separation by specifying that companies other than those that own the track must be given access to run trains.

This would mean that full monopoly might be impossible to achieve because room would always have to be granted to open access operators (even the mighty SNCF was forced to do this). The big danger would be the 'cherry picking' of the new BR's best routes reducing the benefits of cross-subsidisation (indeed this was what Richard Branson originally proposed to do; he wanted to run a luxury ECML service with whirlpool baths!).

[RFT]

The above is correct, but political will apart the biggest barrier is possibly EU directive 91/440, which tends to entrench the infrastructure/operations separation by specifying that companies other than those that own the track must be given access to run trains.

Network rail's ownership (and seperation) would probably satisy the EU directive. The organisations have to be seperate and run on a commercial basis, but they can both have the same ultimate sharholders. - this is the situation with SNCF (Who own and run the trains and are contracted maintain the track) and RFF (who actually own the track) but both are still owned by the French state.

I don't, personally, have an ideologcal problem with open-access private operators running alongside where they see a market that Nationalised rail isn't serving. plus there are corners of the network where privatisation has been good for passengers (Chiltern, for instance).

[Redirect Left]

Allegedly, the CEO of First Group called Pendolinos shabby. He's clearly not been on any of his own trains lately, nor his buses.

[EXTspotter]

The HSTs aren't terrible... And the majority of the local southwestern fleet is in reasonable nick internally (not the 150/1s though). But definately (and rightly) below the pendo.

[Geo Ghost]

Allegedly, the CEO of First Group called Pendolinos shabby. He's clearly not been on any of his own trains lately, nor his buses.

Here here! Before they even think about refurbishing the Pendos (Which in all fairness they don't actually need) perhaps they should take a look at the 313 stock. Absolutely horrible things to ride on.

[SquireJames]

This was a discussion the wife and I had the other night actually. She wondered whether they would get rid of the Pendolinos now that First have taken over. I wasn't sure. I assume Virgin will either be moving their Pendos to different routes or they'd sell them to First. I also pondered whether First might introduce Class 91 sets on the WCML. Is that likely/feasible?

[Chris]

They aren't Virgin's pendolinos, they're owned by a ROSCO (Rolling Stock Operating Company) eg. Porterbrook/HSBC/Angel Trains. I think the DfT co-ordinates the stock allocations for different franchises and thus the 390s will be remaining on the WCML.

[Redirect Left]

Allegedly, the CEO of First Group called Pendolinos shabby. He's clearly not been on any of his own trains lately, nor his buses.

Here here! Before they even think about refurbishing the Pendos (Which in all fairness they don't actually need) perhaps they should take a look at the 313 stock. Absolutely horrible things to ride on.

Indeed. I think the only thing that'd need doing is rebranding the livery and internal references to Virgin, and the rest is pretty good. Hopefully they may realise this.

There are many many worse trains on the network than Pendolinos (Infact, off hand i can't name any better, except for my love affair with 185s), i find the First CapCon 317s quite bad to ride, they also have several sets of Pacers on Great Western too. (143s, admittedly better than 142/144s here...)

[EXTspotter]

The worst First trains I've experienced are the 313s on FCC and the 142s which FGW recieved from Northern. I also strongly dislike the 165s/166s and their horrible seating. The 143s are more comfortable to ride on in my opinion.

I am sure that First wouldn't be refreshing interiors yet anyway as several units have only just arrived and it would be a bit of a waste, even if they just reupholstered the seats in something less virgin-y.

[JamieLei]

I am sure that First wouldn't be refreshing interiors yet anyway as several units have only just arrived and it would be a bit of a waste, even if they just reupholstered the seats in something less virgin-y.

Fat chance of that. CrossCountry still haven't done it, and how many years have they been running the Voyagers?

[Geo Ghost]

This was a discussion the wife and I had the other night actually. She wondered whether they would get rid of the Pendolinos now that First have taken over. I wasn't sure. I assume Virgin will either be moving their Pendos to different routes or they'd sell them to First. I also pondered whether First might introduce Class 91 sets on the WCML. Is that likely/feasible?

91s aren't feasible for the WCML as the route is too 'bendy' (for use of a better word) for them to run effectively at top speed. The 91s were developed for the ECML specifically Thus Pendolinos wouldn't really be much use on the ECML.

Jamie - Didn't know XC hadn't changed their interior. Though to be fair, if it does the function then why spend x-amount of money changing it