"French Trains Set - freight rolling stock needs drawing

The Irish · Post by **The Irish** » 05 Dec 2005 16:47

Our IT-Manager has asked for some holidays, which have been granted. So until he returns, the tracking table is out of order...

I hope however, that Snail has an overview of yet to be drawn locos, wagons etc. Maybe he can answer your question. Would you be interested in drawing some things for us also?

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 07 Dec 2005 00:02

Ladies and germs...

... the Mountains!!! I proudly present you the largest steamers of our set, right off the factory.
They are the 241 series and the 242A. A brief history... the Est company was the first French railway to introduce Mountain steamers, and this happened in 1925. They felt they needed some extra power to pull long express passenger trains on their hilly lines, and that's how the 241 A saw the light. Later, in 1931, PLM tried out this locomotive type too, ordering a modified prototype, the 241 C. Nevertheless, it finally decided to stick on modified Pacifics for some time, so the 241C remained a one-of-a-kind. Later, when SNCF took over, they had to choose a unified steam locomotive which would fill the engine shortage caused by the war's devastation, so they fished the 241C prototype back and they used its design to build a new batch of prestigious locomotives, the 241P, which were built in 30 units in their dark green and black livery. Production ceased in 1952. Thus, the 241P were the last steamer built in France. Overall some good machines, they could count on a very good amount of power and a remarkable tractive effort.
In 1946, Chapelon took a 241P and modified it, to create the finest steamer that was ever built. The 242A proved to be both extremely powerful and fast: it could run to speeds of 160 km/h and developed around 5000 HP, better than any other locomotive of that era could do. Its maintenance was even more simplified and much less expensive than the somewhat bulky 241P's it was derived from. Despite these awesome results, that design never made it to production and the prototype remained a one-of-a-kind, to be destroyed in 1960. The reason was to be found in SNCF's decision to switch to electrification.
The French set allows you to build instead an entire fleet of these vehicles, to give this engine a chance it historically deserved.

Here are the sprites! Animation is done in 6 frames, hoping we'll find a coder patient enough to do it...

The order of appearance is: (1) 241A Est, (2) 241C PLM, (3) 241P black, (4) 241P dark green, (5) 242A. The first two engines will be shrunk in one ID, and the same will happen to the third and the fourth one.

Comments, critics? Even these are milestones in French railroading history, so they ought to look good.

2 Singaporekid: if you plan to finish your model of 242A, please do!

Then, as you suggested, we might include both yours and this one as livery refits.

About the tracking table, oh yeah I do have a spreadsheet, but since I'm plannng to add a steamer or two to the list, let me not publish it just yet. When I'm done adding the data about the new steamers, I'll post it here. With these additions, I'm afraid we'll hit the 116 IDs limit, so we might want to ditch some engines.

BTW we need artists and coders, so if anyone is interested in helping us create a teaser version of the set...

My next work will be the Decapods, i.e. Nord's 150B and SNCF's 150P. I'm planning to draw them in two liveries (brown and green, the historical ones). The steamers' completion is not very far

Cheers!

-EDIT- Animated version is screwed for some reason, I'll post it back as soon as I'll correct it

-Edit again- I had to change GIF bulding program

I'm using an ancient one running on Mac OS 9 now, quite unpractical but it seems to get TTD's palette... will redo my old animations shortly, since they too were screwed.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 07 Dec 2005 00:21

Comrade_sanchez is a newcomer to the forums, but he is learning GRF coding, and has successfully coded one test train that malev drew. You might consider asking if he would be interested in working on coding your set.

Raichase · Post by **Raichase** » 07 Dec 2005 08:27

Whoa, those graphics are very, very well done

.

Post by **PikkaBird** » 07 Dec 2005 09:06

Snail wrote:Here are the sprites! Animation is done in 6 frames, hoping we'll find a coder patient enough to do it...

Well the main problem with 6 is it's not a power of 2... it won't be any harder to code than a 4 or 8 frame animation, but it will visibly jump (it will skip frames 5 and 6 every 256 frames when the counter rolls over, I guess).

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 07 Dec 2005 09:33

Raichase wrote:Whoa, those graphics are very, very well done

Ty!

PikkaBird wrote:Well the main problem with 6 is it's not a power of 2... it won't be any harder to code than a 4 or 8 frame animation, but it will visibly jump (it will skip frames 5 and 6 every 256 frames when the counter rolls over, I guess).

I see. So, if I understand correctly, it will skip 2 frames every 43rd time the wheels go round? (6*43=258)
Keeping in mind that 6 frames allow a much better animation than 4, and 8 frames would probably be too much, this could be an acceptable glitch. We could say it models wheelslip!

BTW, how would animation work in-game? Would the vehicle look still (with or without rods) in the purchase list? And will the animation speed actually reflect the vehicle's speed in the game? (that is, still rods when stopped, and moving when travelling, with a speed reflecting the loco's current velocity)?

michael blunck · Post by **michael blunck** » 07 Dec 2005 10:46

> BTW, how would animation work in-game?
> Would the vehicle look still (with or without rods) in the purchase list?

Yes. However it´ll be animated in the "consist window".

> And will the animation speed actually reflect the vehicle's speed in the game?

Yes.

regards
Michael

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 07 Dec 2005 15:17

PikkaBird wrote:Well the main problem with 6 is it's not a power of 2... it won't be any harder to code than a 4 or 8 frame animation, but it will visibly jump (it will skip frames 5 and 6 every 256 frames when the counter rolls over, I guess).

The counter is a doubleword, of which the low byte is insignificant. With a type 8A var2, shouldn't setting shift-num to 88 00 FF FF FF 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06 make it only jump every 16777216 frames (256^3)?
Hm... Might want to use <and-mask> of 00 7F FF FF instead. That way it'll jump 2 frames every 8388608, instead of 4 every 16777216.

EDIT: And if my brain is working, setting <var>/<var-adjust> to 46 A8 00 7F FF FF 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06 00 46 1E 00 00 00 01 should make it skip one frame every 4194304.

The Irish · Post by **The Irish** » 07 Dec 2005 15:35

how many frames per second?

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 07 Dec 2005 15:43

If my brain is working... then I understand that there is a way to make the animation skip a frame or two every zillion times, which is good. Hope it won't be too hard to code.

Another question, can a sprite have different number of frames for different views? For instance 4 in the horizontal and 2 in the diagonal (or none at all in the diagonal)? In the small tank engines, the wheels are hardly visible at all in the diagonal views, due to the lateral tanks placed on the edges of the chassis. So I was planning to only animate the horizontal views for such engines (040TA, 131TB and the like).

BTW Comrade_Sanchez, you're welcome to drop by here as soon as you're done with your other projects. I'll be happy to give you any of the sprites I drew for you to practice on.

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 07 Dec 2005 15:56

The Irish wrote:how many frames per second?

EBADQUESTION
One frame per sixteenth of a tile.

Snail wrote:If my brain is working... then I understand that there is a way to make the animation skip a frame or two every zillion times, which is good. Hope it won't be too hard to code.

The hard part, as usual, is figuring out how to do it, and I think I just did that.

Snail wrote:Another question, can a sprite have different number of frames for different views? For instance 4 in the horizontal and 2 in the diagonal (or none at all in the diagonal)?

The easiest way to do that is to just duplicate the identical sprites. It might be possible without duplication, but interesting things will happen to the consist window.

jvassie · Post by **jvassie** » 07 Dec 2005 17:44

If anyone is still interested here for a coder, id be willing to help with some coding in my spare time. If people dont mind though id prefer to start with the diesles, electrics and MUs first if at all possible.

Comrade Sanchez, id be happy to work with you as well if thats ok!

Allez la France!

James

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 07 Dec 2005 18:00

Wow! Sure we're still interested! James, thank you very much for your offer!

We can of course start with the electrics and the diesels first. As for my sprites, the early PLMs, the BB1280 are just waiting for someone to rig them up. And there's also the BB61000 modern diesel, although that might need some revising.
Also, Hovering Teacup drew quite a lot of electrics and multiple units, many of which are ready to be coded; if that's ok with him, you guys can start with them, too.
Just, the tracking table is down, so if you're interested I can post a zip of all my electric sprites right here.

I'd like to thank all you guys very much, it's great to see there's still interest around this project.

Decapods already started. I might spin something off from this project (I know there's another engine out there with the same wheel displacement, 1-5-0, waiting to get drawn) but I'd rather keep this as a surprise

Cheers!

jvassie · Post by **jvassie** » 07 Dec 2005 18:08

Thanks for being so interested!

If thats ok, then ill gladly start with yours, if its possible though, id rather not have to arrange the sprites in the file to make it suitable for coding. Ill see what youve got though, yours are most likely alright though.

It'd be handy to have a list of stats etc as well, i may as well get them done at the same time as the graphics i guess. Also one lat thing

would it be possible to have a list of which liveries are to be used and when? Im not sure if the tracking table has this information though. Ive noticed wallyweb is back so that should be alright.

James

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 07 Dec 2005 18:24

It would be great for the two of you to work together. Not only does that make the coding easier, but it will help Comrade Sanchez learn how to be a good coder more quickly.

OzTrans · Post by **OzTrans** » 07 Dec 2005 19:02

... animated (steam) vehicles ...

The only way, that works and gives you a good result, is as Patchman described it in the Wiki. The counter only runs from 0 to 4095 and the low bit will not be picked accurately enough. 6-frames won't work. You should use the high bits only, i.e. shift-num 08h and that leaves you with 0 to 15 then you can use and-mask 0Fh for 16 frames, 07h for 8 frames, 03h for 4 frames and 01h for 2 frames. Anything else will give you jerky motions. Check your result in the main view, best with the 'follow vehicle' feature; the train window is not updated as frequently and motions will always look jerky.

Further, you will need complete sets of sprites, if just the horz view shows animation you still need the vert and diag views duplicated.

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 07 Dec 2005 19:52

OzTransLtd wrote:The [vehicle motion] counter only runs from 0 to 4095 and the low bit will not be picked accurately enough.

I'm assuming you meant s/bit/byte/, but where does it say that? I see "4096 motion units mean motion across one tile", but the wiki's pretty good about reporting meaningless bits, and the given format is "32-bit value", not "00000ccc".

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 07 Dec 2005 22:01

DaleStan wrote:88 00 FF FF FF 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06 make it only jump every 16777216 frames (256^3)?
Hm... Might want to use <and-mask> of 00 7F FF FF instead.
EDIT: And if my brain is working, setting <var>/<var-adjust> to 46 A8 00 7F FF FF 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06 00 46 1E 00 00 00 01

Nope. My brane was not working. I wrote those dwords in big-endian, not little. Those three hex strings should be "88 FF FF FF 00 00 00 00 00 06 00 00 00", "FF FF 7F 00", and "46 A8 FF FF 7F 00 00 00 00 00 06 00 00 00 00 46 1E 01 00 00 00", respectively.

Comrade_sanchez · Post by **Comrade_sanchez** » 07 Dec 2005 22:31

James that sounds like a great plan, It would be really useful to have another person to go over what i've done and i have no preference for what engines i start on.
Really looking forward to finishing my exams now as i'm really keen to help out with this set. Though judging from the numerous strings being quoted regarding the animated steamers i think they might have to wait till i'm competent at coding regular engines.
Snail if i can could grab the tracking spreadsheet it will let me do some precoding organisation, see what timeframes i'll have to start what engine etc.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 07 Dec 2005 23:37

Ok guys.

I see lots of interest around this set. Which is GREAT.

James and Comrade Sanchez, if the two of you can work together on our sprites, it would be a great opportunity for all. You'd get more experience and we would start seeing how our engines really look like in a game. Especially Sanchez could easily get the grasp of coding, and our set will need lots of it. There will be tricky combinations of engines+carriages and weird EMUs that require lots of attention to details.

The tracking table. Right. Well, you asked for it

Here is version .207. It's NOT the final one. Ever since I started my silly attempts with the brushes, I decided to change things on the road and never really kept track of it on the table (I always postpone it, drawing engines is way more fun than fiddling with numbers). This means that the data for the electrics and diesels is pretty much ok, but this does NOT apply to steamers (the early pacifics for instance seem to have 5 liveries according to the table, but they've actually got eight).
Anyway, since by the moment you guys prefer to focus on electrics and diesels, this shouldn't be an issue.

You'll find the list of the engines in the Specs sheet. Further explanation of the engines lies in the "Steamers" and "Electric&Diesel". Multiple units and their composition is extensively dealt with in the "EMU-DMU" sheet. "Engines-Coaches" deals with the livery override of passenger trains, which will work according to (1) engine type, (2) engine livery, (3) engine production year, (4) coach production year, and (5) coach type; local, express, or bilevel. It also deals with special consists such as the Orient Express etc. However, coaches are far from being drawn, so we can leave it out for the moment. "Pax-Mail" deals with the different coaches styles themselves. "Freight", well, deals with freight wagons (not even started). "Pix" proposes pictures of the engines, and the other three are just calculation sheets (shouldn't be fiddled with).
This to give an idea of what's to be done yet (and as you can see there's still a lot of work), until Wally comes back and we gain our tables back.

Right now I'll attach a zipfile of my modest creations, all but the steamers. James and Sanchez, I do hope you can code them straight, without editing them: I followed Dalestan's advice (ty!

), starting with northbound, then clockwise. Here's a list of what's inside. You'll find the specs on the spreadsheet (Specs sheet, from row 48 down).
- BB1280: one livery, so no probs
- 2BB2: name "2BB2 3300", livery 1 (green, grey roof) until 1938 (if you wanna get a date, take 12/31/1937), livery 2 (all dark green) from 1938 to end;
- 1ABBA1: name "1ABBA1 3600", liveries 1 and 2 (green, grey roof, livery 2 has yellow stripes) until 1938, livery 3 (all dark green) from 1938 to end; livery 1 should appear with 3/4 probability and livery 2 1/4;
- 1CC1: name "1CC1 3800", livery 1 (green, grey roof) until 1938, livery 2 (all dark green) from 1938 on;
- 2CC2: name "2CC2 3400", livery 1 (green, grey roof) until 1938, livery 2 (all dark green) until 1946, livery 3 (blue) 1946 to end;
- BB61000, one livery.

Btw, are we allowed to add a description line in the purchase list? If so;
BB1280: "Light universal service"
2BB2: "Express passenger service"
1ABBA1: "Heavy freight service, mountainous routes"
1CC1: "Heavy freight service, mountainous routes"
2CC2: "High-speed passenger service, hilly routes"
BB61000: "Light and medium freight service".
How do they sound?

Right, I guess that's all I drew that is not a steamer. The rest of my production still requires revisiting (it's not animated yet), so I think you guys could start with these five if it's ok with you. Hope HT will agree to post his sprites, too. He drew quite a few multiple units and diesel engines that are just ready for coding, and many electric engines that only require some additional liveries.

One last thing.

OzTransLtd wrote:The counter only runs from 0 to 4095 and the low bit will not be picked accurately enough. 6-frames won't work.

DaleStan wrote:I'm assuming you meant s/bit/byte/, but where does it say that? I see "4096 motion units mean motion across one tile", but the wiki's pretty good about reporting meaningless bits, and the given format is "32-bit value", not "00000ccc".

Well, if 6 frames won't work, it means I'll have to add 2 more sprites to the Pacifics and the Mountains. Which will be kind of sub-optimal because I honestly like them the way they are. Maybe I'll leave you guys some time to sort out the matter before I pick up the hammer and redo the rods? I'd really like to know whether our 6-frame animation as it is now could be feasible in a game or not.

Right. Hope to finish the Decapods soon. In the meantime, have fun and good luck to our coders!

We really do appreciate the effort.

Cheers

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