ECS vectors v1.1.2 (by George) 19/06/2011

[George]

I supposed that we both would write these parts ...

OK, I understand what you are looking for now. Would it not be better to wait until you finish updating all your download files to Beta 3?

Why to wait? I think we should write it as they are all beta 3 already. And also I'd suggest to write a caution to use at least beta 3, because other vectors are old.

@George, Can you change the title of that page from "General Rules" to "General Information" or to "General Data"? It would be more appropriate.

Could you do it?

[George]

I just downloaded and installed the new Machinery Vector version and activated it in a running game (OTTD single user).
The Iron Ore Mines have a wrong Tile on the top.

Rainer 16-2007 Transport, 16. Mai 1939.png

Within a year three serviced Ore Mines (about 70% transported) closed down.
Is that a bug or a feature?

I suppose it does not happen in new games, right? In old games you have to replace all the iron ore mines

[wallyweb]

I supposed that we both would write these parts ...

OK, I understand what you are looking for now. Would it not be better to wait until you finish updating all your download files to Beta 3?

Why to wait? I think we should write it as they are all beta 3 already. And also I'd suggest to write a caution to use at least beta 3, because other vectors are old.

Your download page shows only four as beta3. All the rest appear as alpha1.

@George, Can you change the title of that page from "General Rules" to "General Information" or to "General Data"? It would be more appropriate.

Could you do it?

Yes I can ... I will change it to "General Information". Can you change the navigation links that appear at the top of the pages to match this?

[George]

Your download page shows only four as beta3. All the rest appear as alpha1.

Basic vector would beta 3 in about a week or two.
Basic vector for Arctic is aborted and should be removed
I think 5 vectors is enough to start. It is even too much for a 256x256 map. 4 vectors is more than enough

Yes I can ... I will change it to "General Information". Can you change the navigation links that appear at the top of the pages to match this?

It is automatically generated, isn't it (with {toc} command)? The only thing that you can't change is structure. But do we need to change it now?

[wallyweb]

Your download page shows only four as beta3. All the rest appear as alpha1.

Basic vector would beta 3 in about a week or two.
Basic vector for Arctic is aborted and should be removed

Ok

I think 5 vectors is enough to start. It is even too much for a 256x256 map. 4 vectors is more than enough

Of course I can't speak for other players but I always use all seven vectors in my games. If I didn't I would feel like I was missing something. Also, it is very challenging.

Yes I can ... I will change it to "General Information". Can you change the navigation links that appear at the top of the pages to match this?

It is automatically generated, isn't it (with {toc} command)? The only thing that you can't change is structure. But do we need to change it now?

I don't know anything about the toc command, but as you suggest, it can wait until later.

[athanasios]

I can't speak for other players but I always use all seven vectors in my games. If I didn't I would feel like I was missing something. Also, it is very challenging.

You also speak for me.
And it is much better on huge OTTD maps.

[Korenn]

I've been playing ottd with all 7 vectors with a couple of friends of mine. It's a lot of fun, but we encountered some problems...

we're using the US set and the US city buildings on a 512x512 map, and it plays well. (latest nightly, latest ECS grfs)

During our play we found a pattern: The economy keeps collapsing. Even when set to a stable economy all industries will mostly go down, hardly ever up. And after about 25-30 years 70-80% of all unserviced industries have closed down (leaving the map mostly empty except for those that we're servicing). No new industries are being founded. This means the game is pretty much over about 40 years after starting, with only passenger transport left.

Also, when we try to use the machinery vector, iron ore mines keep lowering their production and closing down even with good servicing. In our current game we had 11 Iron Ore mines at start, 5 of those have been serviced (with >70% transported), but only 1 is left after 25 years and that one is there because of protection at absolute minimal production. This makes the whole machinery vector useless.

Also, the US set can't transport lime stone, but that's not such a large issue, we use trucks for it at the moment.
We also have no idea how to get the tourist industry running, but I'm not sure if that's a bug or just our ineptitude.

[OzTrans]

... We also have no idea how to get the tourist industry running, but I'm not sure if that's a bug or just our ineptitude.

I'm no expert on ECS, but I believe you need a 3rd party tourism industry to trigger the castle and tower to 'produce' tourists ...

I assume, when you say 'US City Buildings', you do mean 'NA City'. In this case, NA City will help you get the whole show under way. Transport tourists from the NA City hotels to the ECS tourist centres and they will get down to business.

Unfortunately, we did have a rather nasty bug in NA City, so you will have to download NA City v0.1c [2 Jan 2008] first. Get it here.

[Korenn]

... We also have no idea how to get the tourist industry running, but I'm not sure if that's a bug or just our ineptitude.

I'm no expert on ECS, but I believe you need a 3rd party tourism industry to trigger the castle and tower to 'produce' tourists ...

I assume, when you say 'US City Buildings', you do mean 'NA City'. In this case, NA City will help you get the whole show under way. Transport tourists from the NA City hotels to the ECS tourist centres and they will get down to business.

Unfortunately, we did have a rather nasty bug in NA City, so you will have to download NA City v0.1c [2 Jan 2008] first. Get it here.

ah. Yes we are using the NA City set. We had tried moving tourists from the city to the attractions, but obviously it wasn't working

thanks

[George]

I've been playing ottd with all 7 vectors with a couple of friends of mine. It's a lot of fun, but we encountered some problems...
we're using the US set and the US city buildings on a 512x512 map, and it plays well. (latest nightly, latest ECS grfs)
During our play we found a pattern: The economy keeps collapsing.

After 5 game years all unserviced industries start to close down. That is intended. We can discus the time period. The last one will stay on the map in most cases, so you can build any chain you want.

Even when set to a stable economy all industries will mostly go down, hardly ever up.

BTW. As soon as you service the industry good enough to bring it to low production level, the close down chance is 0, and if you service industry at any level, the closedown chance is reduced to 10%.
In TTDP AI can bring industries to normal production level (but I never tested games with alpha vectors, so the situation is much easier, of cause, I had only 3-4 vectors loaded).

And after about 25-30 years 70-80% of all unserviced industries have closed down (leaving the map mostly empty except for those that we're servicing). No new industries are being founded. This means the game is pretty much over about 40 years after starting, with only passenger transport left.

Strange, new industries should appear the same way as in original TTD. The difference is that they disappear after 2 years without service, but I suppose in the middle of the game the player can provide fast and good service to all the newly build industries.

Also, when we try to use the machinery vector, iron ore mines keep lowering their production and closing down even with good servicing.

that is strange. In OTTD they should increase production when you transport over 75% of cargo. Unfortunately in TTDP you need 96% rating that is very hard to achieve. I'm not sure how to do it right.

We also have no idea how to get the tourist industry running, but I'm not sure if that's a bug or just our ineptitude.

you need hotels. From TTRS or NACS

[wallyweb]

you need hotels. From TTRS or NACS

Sometime today I will update the wiki to show this.
George, what if the player has no city set loaded? Where do the tourists come from then?

[George]

you need hotels. From TTRS or NACS

Sometime today I will update the wiki to show this.
George, what if the player has no city set loaded? Where do the tourists come from then?

They would not come from anywhere. Suggestions?

P.S. I'll reduce the transportation level, required for production grow from 96% to 85% for mines (iron ore and coal). I hope that would be enough for TTDP?

[Roujin]

you need hotels. From TTRS or NACS

Sometime today I will update the wiki to show this.
George, what if the player has no city set loaded? Where do the tourists come from then?

They would not come from anywhere. Suggestions?

If you can check somehow that there is no source for tourists, you could change the tourist industries to act like primary industries (sand, iron ore, coal) meaning they have a small output that increases when transportation rate is high?
Then one would transport tourists from tourist industry to tourist industry, like passengers from towns to towns.

If you don't like this, 2nd and more harsh idea: disable tourist industries in this case.

however these two depend on doing a check somehow if there are some kind of hotels or other tourist sources in the game.

[wallyweb]

what if the player has no city set loaded? Where do the tourists come from then?

They would not come from anywhere. Suggestions?

Could the tourist centers be made to accept passengers if there are no city sets with hotels?

[George]

If you can check somehow that there is no source for tourists, you could change the tourist industries to act like primary industries (sand, iron ore, coal) meaning they have a small output that increases when transportation rate is high?
Then one would transport tourists from tourist industry to tourist industry, like passengers from towns to towns.
If you don't like this, 2nd and more harsh idea: disable tourist industries in this case.
however these two depend on doing a check somehow if there are some kind of hotels or other tourist sources in the game.

I can check set XXX is loaded, but I can't test that there are hotels.
We need some sort of flags. We have discussed it with Csaboka before, but me doubts that flags would be coded soon.

[wallyweb]

I can check set XXX is loaded, but I can't test that there are hotels.

How about this:

If not (NACity or TTRS) present then accept passengers
else accept tourists

[George]

I can check set XXX is loaded, but I can't test that there are hotels.

How about this:
If not (NACity or TTRS) present then accept passengers
else accept tourists

Possible, but will not work for new sets, like Michaels Alpine set (I hope to see it someday). Flags would be more correct solutions.

[wallyweb]

Unfortunately we do not have flags now. Is it possible for ECSTownVector to make a hotel for a town? Perhaps using some of your graphics that went to TTRS?

[electricmonk]

Basic vector for Arctic is aborted and should be removed

So does that mean that your new industries are only going to become available on the Temperate and Tropic climates? I for one would like to continue playing in the Arctic climate.

Incidentally, if I play with recent-ish Newindustries GRF files, there is no more bank in the Arctic climate (see http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=647806#p647806 for details including which GRF versions I'm using).

While I'm here, I've posted some of my thoughts about ECS industries at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=644027#p644027 (sometimes, I mistakenly refer to your ECS sets as "PBS").

One thing I would like to see is a food-producing industry that can operate far away from water. One thing I liked doing in the arctic climate is finding a food-processing plant that was very far away from any below-snowline ground, feed it with express goods-trains from farms, and then distribute the food to several neraby towns. I think I heard the TTDPatch guys were working on rivers. Maybe that could be the solution to high-altitude food-industries. Another idea is to allow the food-producing industries to be placed anywhere if they are supplied with water.

And finally, can I add my voice to all those who keep saying "Please please please pretty please with ice-cream and cherries on top could you do something about the industry closure?" I think that 5 years is too early. I believe that your ECS industries were designed for TTDPatch with it's limit of 256x256 maps. However, in OpenTTD and it's larger maps, players prefer to have a lower density of towns and industries. If like me you prefer to start the game in the 1920s with limited cash and limited locomotive-options, you find that attempting to form a complete transportation chain for all industry-vectors can take up a lot of game-time (and 5 years isn't enough time to earn enough money to found a new industry). In my 1024x1024 low-density map, I find that as many as five industries can close down per month. My gripe in the post I linked to was due to a bug in 0.6b1 (which was thankfully fixed in 0.6b2) that flooded my news-messages, but even so, I'd prefer it if the rate of industry closure was slowed down. But even with 0.6b2, the message buffer is still too short to hold all the messages and I sometimes have to check the map in 'Vegetation' view to look for industry-sized patches of bare land to see if I've missed an industry-closure message. My style of playing involves choosing a few locations on a large map and creating mini-networks. Once several years have passed, I then join all my networks together to form one big network. Simetimes, my chosen locations for mini-networks are based on interesting positioning of industries/towns/scenery, while at other times, I just go for whatever subsidy is on offer at the time. Perhaps you could have a difficulty setting (a NewGRF paramater) that lets you vary the rate of industry-closure.

Anyway, I appreciate the work you've done so far. OpenTTD has more depth to it now that I have somany more new industries.

[OzTrans]

Is it possible for ECSTownVector to make a hotel for a town? Perhaps using some of your graphics that went to TTRS?

A better solution would be to modify the TTD 'original' hotel(s) to 'produce' tourists.