"French Trains Set - freight rolling stock needs drawing

[michael blunck]

You're correct, those engines were actually built after a Prussian design and used in Alsace in the Elsaß-Löthringen network

Well, no. They were originally built in Prussia (by Vulcan and Henschel companies) and delivered to the so-called "Reichseisenbahn" in Alsace-Lorraine (formerly german Elsass-Lothringen).

Are you sure the 141TA was designed in Germany? [...]

As you already stated above, the french numbering scheme is far from being clear. And yes, the numbers 42-901 to 42-923 have been prussian T14s.

See

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/roland.arzul/et ... l/141t.htm

which states:

"Les premières locomotives tender de type 141 du réseau de l'Etat sont les locomotives reçues de l'Etat prussien au titre des dommages de guerre. Ces machines, construites à 589 exemplaires entre 1915 et 1918 par différents constructeurs, étaient désignées T14 sur leur réseau d'origine." [The first tank locomotives of the 141 type on the État network had been received from the prussian state as reparation after WWI. These engines, built in quantities of 589 items between 1915 and 1918 by different companies [see below, mb] had been labeled "T14" on their original network.]

In addition,

http://orion.math.iastate.edu/jdhsmith/ ... frsncf.htm

lists three different types of 141TAs:

- network "Est" (which are pr. T14s)
- network "Nord"
- network "P.O." (which had been built by SLM in Winterthur)

The T14 had been designed by the "Union" company in Königsberg in 1913 (there was an earlier T14 built in 1912 by Henschel for the Berlin suburban network which was not succesful). Until 1918, the prussian K.P.E.V. ordered 547 units, built by the Union, Henschel and Hohenzollern companies. There were only 6 engines built for Elsass-Lothringen.

Since 1919, a modified version, the "T14-1", was built because the original design suffered from too small storage capacities both for water and coal and a too high axle load for the first carrying axle.

By the way, do you happen to have info about the model the 030C comes from? I found a TE of around 35KN, but it sounds a bit low to me...

This could be the pr. "G4 II" from 1882 of which Elsass-Lothringen got also a small quantity. The axle scheme would be "C" then and the adhesive weight 41.2 tons, resulting to a max tractive effort of roughly 120kN (or below).

do you have any info about the Engerth locomotive type? [...]

Well, yes. Thats a special building principle named after Wilhelm von Engerth, director of the austrian StEG. The distinguishing feature of this locomotive type was that the weight of the locomotive was conveyed onto the tender by a lever system, thus distributing it over the tender axles as well. Through this means the load on the individual axles is reduced and it is therefore possible to build heavier (i.e. more powerful) engines.

In Austria, Engerth’s designs were not conspicuously successful, but were nevertheless adopted by foreign railways. The only preserved Engerth locomotive actually built in Austria is the "Kladno" at the National Technical Museum in Prague. There are two others, one with the "Verkehrshaus" in Luzern (Switzerland) and the french 032T at the Railway Museum in Mulhouse (France).

However, I don´t have any technical stats. Sorry.

regards
Michael

[Snail]

Well, no. They were originally built in Prussia

This is the 232TC, a Prussian-built tank locomotive used in France after WWI

that's from my original post... we gave complete information already

Are you sure the 141TA was designed in Germany? [...]

As you already stated above, the french numbering scheme is far from being clear. And yes, the numbers 42-901 to 42-923 have been prussian T14s.

Oh, you mean these?
Yeah, those were pre-WWI german locomotives used in Alsace-Lorraine, which remained in France after the war. They were even used in Luxembourg. Their usage and popularity in France was not even close to that of the PO ones though, so that's the reason why we only included the Swiss built model in our set.

We did try to represent every part of the country, and we think the 232TC is the most representative engine from Alsace-Lorraine, even if it wasn't French by design nor construction.
As for the other engines, we try to give priority to the models built and/or designed in France; this will be the case, for instance, for the 242TA and the 230's and 231's.

Thank you for the info! By the way, is there a formula to extrapolate TE from weight and / or adhesive weight that you know of?

[krtaylor]

Snail, are you French? You seem to be quite an expert. That, or an expert with Google!

[Snail]

Almost... well, I know France quite well as a country, and I spent some of my university life in Paris, when I used to commute with trains

well not steamers but trains in general always fascinated me and I always tried to get to know as much as possible. I'm already anticipating how fun it will be to make the future Italian set

Technical note. Do you think my locos are a bit too low?
I checked with DanMack's latest sprites (I don't wanna copy anybody, I was just curious and wanted to check the proportions) and his steamers happen to be one pixel taller than mines. I'm planning to draw the bigger steamers (231 etc.) taller as well (they were taller in reality). Maybe I should correct the not-so-small steamers I drew so far, like the 141 and the 232?

[DanMacK]

Hmmm, depends really. The European locos, in general, were smaller than their NA counterparts. My sugestion Snail, is to try and see how they look to you.

One comment, for somebody stating at the beginning of the thread that they couldn't draw, you're doing an awesome job!

[Snail]

Hmmm, depends really. The European locos, in general, were smaller than their NA counterparts.

True, that's a good point. At least, no one of the little steamers I've drawn so far was as tall as the average American engine. I'll keep this in mind in my next works, though, when I arrive to monsters like the 241 or the big Baltics.

My sugestion Snail, is to try and see how they look to you.

Yeah. We'll see them better when they're attached to wagons. Anyway, I tried to keep proportions right. I tried to raise the roof and the boiler of the 232TC, and frankly the results are ugly. So, at least by the moment, it's gonna stay as it is.

One comment, for somebody stating at the beginning of the thread that they couldn't draw, you're doing an awesome job!

Thank you for your kind words man! Your feedback is a greater encouragement for me to keep drawing. As for my self-comments, well, I didn't think I'd catch up so quickly after 13 years I stopped using the legendary Deluxe Paint Luckily, GraphicConverter on my Mac behaves the same way and it's like going back to my teens for me.
I'm already working on the 242TA, it's gonna have three liveries with some modifications (like smoke deflectors) for the latest livery; since this is somewhat bigger than the steamers I've drawn so far, I'm doing it slightly taller. You'll judge the effect when it's done

[michael blunck]

[141TA]

Yeah, those were pre-WWI german locomotives used in Alsace-Lorraine [...] Their usage and popularity in France was not even close to that of the PO ones though, so that's the reason why we only included the Swiss built model in our set.

Yes, that´s OK. I´d suggest to prefer widely used locomotives rather than to include models which have been used only in small series or only as prototypes.

However, due to the vague french classification scheme it´s not always clear which engine is meant. So you was refering to the Winterthur-built 141TA. That´s a good choice, anyway.

[...]

Thank you for the info! By the way, is there a formula to extrapolate TE from weight and / or adhesive weight that you know of?

Well, yes. There is an (easy) formula, but it doesn´t always give you the proper result:

Code: Select all

TE = W_adh * µ

You´ll need to know a number of additional informations.

Firstly, TE is based on adhesion (friction) which is depending only from weight and material of the involved surfaces. Adhesion between steel rail and steel wheel is highly variable e.g. between µ = 0.18 ... 0.36 depending on the condition of tracks/wheels (exact type of material, wetness, slippery, ...) i.e. it cannot be easily calculated in advance but instead is measured in test runs.

Most technical documentations give those measured numbers.


In addition, "µ" is depending from speed as well, i.e.

µ = 0.161 + 7.5 * (44/v) ~ 0.36 (for v ~ 0) (Curtius-Kniffler formula)


Now, the most important number is "adhesive weight", i.e. that part of weight which is represented by powered axles only, i.e. carrying (non-powered) axles do not count.

E.g. the BR92 from the DB set with a total weight of 60 tons has an axle formula of "D" (i.e. 4 driven axles) and hence an adhesive weight of 60 tons as well.

In contrast, the BR01 has an axle scheme of "2'C1'", i.e. 2 non-powered axles followed by 3 powered axles and another non-powered axle. Having a total weight of 109 tons, the adhesive weight is only 59.2 tons, i.e. similar to the BR92.

BR01 axle loads:

1. axle 14.75 t
2. axle 14.75 t
3. axle 19.6 t
4. axle 19.6 t
5. axle 20 t
6. axle 20.2 t
---------------
total 108.9 t

BR01 adhesive weight:

1. axle 0
2. axle 0
3. axle 19.6 t
4. axle 19.6 t
5. axle 20 t
6. axle 0
---------------
total 59.2 t

You see?


Now, to calculate max TE (for the BR92), you´ll simply have to multiply adhesive weight by the adhesion/friction factor (e.g. µ = 0.3), i.e.

60 tons * 0.3 -> 18 tons = 18 * 9.81 kN = 176.58 kN

Now, according to DRG steamers technical documentation manuals, the measured max TE of the BR92 is a smaller 115kN, the reason being constructional details of the engine in question like

- gears transmission ratio,
- (missing) wheel slip control,
- the influence of single-axle drive vs. mechanically coupled axles,
- temporary collapse of friction by skid or nodding,
- ...

which limits exploitation of max TE.

In general, there are no steam locomotives which do reach their theoretical max TE, although this is very easy for modern (electric) engines with sophisticated microprocessor-based drive control.

I.e., the only possibility to get (partly) correct TE numbers is to use
those measured numbers from the technical documentations.

If there are no numbers at all, it should be possible to get reasonable numbers by comparison with a similar engine, i.e. same adhesive weight, resp. same axle scheme and total weight.

regards
Michael

[Snail]

Yes, that´s OK. I´d suggest to prefer widely used locomotives rather than to include models which have been used only in small series or only as prototypes.

However, due to the vague french classification scheme it´s not always clear which engine is meant. So you was refering to the Winterthur-built 141TA. That´s a good choice, anyway.

Yes, only the SLM-built 141TA is part of the set. It would have been nice to have the Prussian-built too, but in reality it was used only in 6 units in France; too few. We do include a few prototypes in the set, or machines built in a small number of units, like the 242A, the 262BD diesel, some PLM early electrics etc., but there's a reason for their presence; they represented some of the highest peaks in the world of French railroading.

Btw, thanks for your exhaustive and very precise explanation! Your help is very much appreciated. With your suggestion, I tweaked our engines' TE scheme, now it sounds more realistic.

And... as usual, new post, new engine, right?...

... here you get the 242TA! Brand new, right off the factory
As usual, a bit of history. These locomotives were the largest tank engines built in France: they were conceived in the late Twenties to speed up the service around the suburbs of Paris and the other major cities around the country. Their peculiarity was the symmetrical wheels' displacement, which enabled them of a push-pull capability, widely used to speed the service up in the commuter service. They original name was 242AT, renamed 242TA by SNCF. They became very popular and assured service for more than 40 years. Many companies owned them: in the FRSet, we represent the green PLM model and the black Nord model (but even other companies used it in this black livery). As Michael pointed out, in Alsace-Lorraine there were some very similar locomotives built in Prussia, but they're not included here. The original liveries, as usual, will be replaced in 1938 by two SNCF color schemes, black and grey-green; in both periods (1927-1938 and 1938-onwards), the two available liveries will appear randomly, 50% probability each.

You can see pictures of (very well made) models here and of the real thing here.

This completes the tank steamers for the FRSet... slowly, the set is advancing. Next on my list are the steamers with the tender, the 230 comes first. It's gonna be quite a feat with all those liveries (6 are planned: light grey PO, brown Nord, green PLM, black Midi, and two SNCF modern ones), so don't hold your breath

Critics or feedback is appreciated!

To Wally: as you can see, I updated the sprites of the other steamers (look at the previous page) so now everything is ready for upload. I retouched the 141TA and doubled the sprites for the 232TC, because that engine was capable of push-pull service, too.

Cheers!

Snail

[DanMacK]

NICE! Only suggestion I can make is the rearward facing / \ views, the cab looks a bit too high and the boiler looks too short as a result, it looks out of proportion.. All other views however are fine.

[Snail]

NICE!

Thks man!

Only suggestion I can make is the rearward facing / \ views, the cab looks a bit too high and the boiler looks too short as a result, it looks out of proportion.. All other views however are fine.

Excellent. That's the feedback I like to get You're right, I edited the sprites taking your suggestions into account, and the result is here. It actually looks better (more proportioned).

[DanMacK]

Much better man! Looking forward to more sprites I'll definitely have to give this set a go once it's done.

[The Irish]

Great stuff as always snail. Really nice sprites.

keep it up. Makes me feel guilty and think that I have to work on the CC72000 again... Will see, maybe on Sunday if the weather is bad.

Oh, and Dan and Michael, thanks for stopping buy. Having the opinion and support of such professiionals as you are, is always good.

[krtaylor]

Actually, I like it better the original way - the newer way looks like someone stepped on it, like a bug.

[DanMacK]

But then you'd have to raise the cab in the other views as well. The revised one looks MUCH better proportion-wise.

The Irish, not a problem, this will be a beautiful set once it's done, that's for sure.

[Snail]

But then you'd have to raise the cab in the other views as well. The revised one looks MUCH better proportion-wise.

That's right, it was disproportioned in the original sprites. I might try to raise the cab in all four diagonal views and see what happens. But then again, the 230 is already enuff work (I already started it and I'm not planning to work on anything else until it's finished in all its liveries and versions - I'm planning to diversify the sprites a bit, like the 242TA, between early and late versions).

The Irish, not a problem, this will be a beautiful set once it's done, that's for sure.

Thank you! We're just getting started

[coalroads artist]

Snail,my advice is to get yourself a screen shot and position newly drawn things on tracks against other peoples work and other carriages to compare sizes.Ive been redrawing nearly all my early stuff because it so out of proportion (just have a look at the diesel locos on the front of those passenger carriages in my sig before i fixed them).Today ive spent 2hrs already fixing a steamer and its tender but its worth it.If you can already reconise the proportions this early unlike myself (i use to just concentrate on the shape at first), you have a pretty good eye for drawing these things.I think that all thougth it is subjective when it comes to lengths we need some universal templates for artists here as i know it would make my drawing a lot quicker

[Snail]

Hi Coalroads!

Nice hearing feedback from you. That's right, what you say makes perfect sense. Actually, as I said, before starting drawing I had a look at HT's sprites for the French set and used them as template for my work; whenever I started a new engine, I checked height and length comparing with HT's work, got the amount of pixels I had to respect, and then I started drawing.
I noticed that my steamers are somewhat smaller than DanMack's, for instance, but that might be due to the fact that (1) european steamers were really smaller than US ones and (2) the big French steamers have yet to be drawn: I'll do them slightly larger, respecting the proportions.

Until now, as a test I've tried to attach some steamers of mine with HT's already done carriages and they seem to fit quite well. Anyway, when I post the sprites for the 230 (which is currently 50% done ) we'll be able to judge.

BTW, now that we can have tilting trains... how about drawing the TGV Pendulaire and making it able to tilt? Your other TGVs are awesome, so I think you'd be the best one to draw the TGV-P for us!

[coalroads artist]

I would love to when i have the time as it would make much more sense drawing another TGV that tilts

[hovering teacup]

hi,
i think i said i'd do no other liveries than already done, but i somehow got tired with them and started to do some additional liveries.

followings are done; sybic (orange), the 8500 (green), the 9200 (grey concrete, not yet complete)

and i'll do yet the following;
9200: green (both original and with white stripe), corail (the one with a thin orange stripe), multiservice, en voyage
7200: multiservice
9400: grey concrete and green


so other graphists can concentrate on trains and livries not listed above, unless my work would be too slow or eventually i'd quit some of these, or some people would want anyway to do these.


here are the sybic and the bb-alsthom. other locos will be posted within, say, 4 months. (though this kind of estimation is not reliable at all)

cheers

[Snail]

Wow! That's great news HT!!!

Love your work, all the engines are really really well done. I'm not mentioning any in particular of the ones you posted, as they're *all* very well drawn, with the same professional style. I think they can straight be included in the set.

I like this especially because it allows me to focus on the engines of the period I like most -- the early era. The 230 is near completion, took me a lot of time and effort and was the toughest cookie I've dealt with so far; I'll post it as soon as it's done (six liveries plus an order from Switzerland). Your feedback will be very important for me, so prepare with your critics
By the way, your 2C2 3100 is very well drawn, but it's a couple of pixles too long. When I finish the steamers I was planning to shorten it a bit and add the green livery, which will be similar to those of the PLM early electrics, is it okay with you?

Only thing I noticed was, I tried to attach my locos to your Talbot wagons, and noticed a bit of misproportions. Raising your coaches by one pixel made things much better. When the steamers are done (which will be far away in the future), I was thinking about starting from your Talbots as templates, raising them by one pixel, and drawing the batch of old-timer carriages. I hope this is not the starting point of some major compatibility problem in the future. Anyway, when the 230 is done I'll post a mock-up so we'll see.

By now, congrats for your project and your models. We really love your work

Cheers

Snail